Discussion:
No Ontology Without Epistemology!
(too old to reply)
TheInquirer
2012-12-23 21:48:58 UTC
Permalink
http://bigi.org.uk/blog/2009/06/29/ontology-epistemology-atheism-agnosticism/

agree or disagree?
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.

Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think my questions
are stupid, you have already proven that you are stupid,
not me. If you don't know the answer, can you please
"pass" to more capable person(s) to answer?
Davej
2012-12-23 21:58:32 UTC
Permalink
http://bigi.org.uk/blog/2009/06/29/ontology-epistemology-atheism-agno...
agree or disagree?
I disagree with the claim that there is an underlying hidden premise
of “By default, nothing exists.” That is simply not true. In fact that
is perhaps the primary argument of the theist. With that flawed of a
beginning there is no point in continuing with the article.
TheInquirer
2012-12-23 23:14:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Davej
http://bigi.org.uk/blog/2009/06/29/ontology-epistemology-atheism-agno...
agree or disagree?
I disagree with the claim that there is an underlying hidden premise
of “By default, nothing exists.”
what do you mean?

is there a premise or not? if these is, is it hidden or not??
or is there another i.e. different premise?



That is simply not true. In fact that
Post by Davej
is perhaps the primary argument of the theist.
is the author of the article a theist?

does one need to be a theist to be a good thinker, critical of even
one's own assumptions?


With that flawed

is that your flaw or the author's flaw?


of a
Post by Davej
beginning there is no point in continuing with the article.
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.

Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think my questions
are stupid, you have already proven that you are stupid,
not me. If you don't know the answer, can you please
"pass" to more capable person(s) to answer?
Immortalist
2012-12-24 20:03:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Davej
http://bigi.org.uk/blog/2009/06/29/ontology-epistemology-atheism-agno...
agree or disagree?
I disagree with the claim that there is an underlying hidden premise
of “By default, nothing exists.” That is simply not true. In fact that
is perhaps the primary argument of the theist. With that flawed of a
beginning there is no point in continuing with the article.
In science the null hypothesis or default theory is just a way to
start from scratch and then see what the evidence supports. Its a way
to avoid dogmatic bias.

Null hypothesis
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The practice of science involves formulating and testing hypotheses,
statements that are capable of being proven false using a test of
observed data. The null hypothesis typically corresponds to a general
or default position. For example, the null hypothesis might be that
there is no relationship between two measured phenomena or that a
potential treatment has no effect.

The term was originally coined by English geneticist and statistician
Ronald Fisher in 1935. It is typically paired with a second
hypothesis, the alternative hypothesis, which asserts a particular
relationship between the phenomena. Jerzy Neyman and Egon Pearson
formalized the notion of the alternative. The alternative need not be
the logical negation of the null hypothesis; it predicts the results
from the experiment if the alternative hypothesis is true. The use of
alternative hypotheses was not part of Fisher's formulation, but
became standard.

The null hypothesis can never be proven. Data, such as the results of
an observation or experiment, can only reject or fail to reject a null
hypothesis. For example, if comparison of two groups (for example,
comparing subjects treated with a medication with untreated subjects)
reveals no statistically significant difference between the two, it
does not prove that there really is no difference; it only shows that
the results were not sufficient to reject the null hypothesis.

Hypothesis testing works by collecting data and measuring how likely
the particular set of data is, assuming the null hypothesis is true.
If the data-set is very unlikely, defined as being part of a class of
sets of data that only rarely will be observed, the experimenter
rejects the null hypothesis concluding it (probably) is false. This
class of data-sets is usually specified via a test statistic which is
designed to measure the extent of apparent departure from the null
hypothesis. The procedure works by assessing whether the observed
departure measured by the test statistic is larger than a value
defined so that the probability of occurrence of a more extreme value
is small under the null hypothesis (usually in less than either 5% or
1% of similar data-sets in which the null hypothesis does hold). If
the data do not contradict the null hypothesis, then only a weak
conclusion can be made; namely that the observed data set provides no
strong evidence against the null hypothesis. As the null hypothesis
could be true or false, in this case, in some contexts this is
interpreted as meaning that the data give insufficient evidence to
make any conclusion, on others it means that there is no evidence to
support changing from a currently useful regime to a different one.

For instance, a certain drug may reduce the chance of having a heart
attack. Possible null hypotheses are "this drug does not reduce the
chances of having a heart attack" or "this drug has no effect on the
chances of having a heart attack". The test of the hypothesis consists
of administering the drug to half of the people in a study group as a
controlled experiment. If the data show a statistically significant
change in the people receiving the drug, the null hypothesis is
rejected...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Null_hypothesis

In statistical hypothesis testing two hypotheses are compared, which
are called the null hypothesis and the alternative hypothesis. The
null hypothesis is the hypothesis that states that there is no
relation between the phenomena whose relation is under investigation,
or at least not of the form given by the alternative hypothesis. The
alternative hypothesis, as the name suggests, is the alternative to
the null hypothesis: it states that there is some kind of relation.
The alternative hypothesis may take several forms, depending on the
nature of the hypothesized relation; in particular, it can be two-
sided (for example: there is some effect, in a yet unknown direction)
or one-sided (the direction of the hypothesized relation, positive or
negative, is fixed in advance)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothesis

The simplistic definition of the null is as the opposite of the
alternative hypothesis, H1, although the principle is a little more
complex than that.

The null hypothesis (H0) is a hypothesis which the researcher tries to
disprove, reject or nullify.

The 'null' often refers to the common view of something, while the
alternative hypothesis is what the researcher really thinks is the
cause of a phenomenon.

An experiment conclusion always refers to the null, rejecting or
accepting H0 rather than H1.

Despite this, many researchers neglect the null hypothesis when
testing hypotheses, which is poor practice and can have adverse
effects.

Examples of the Null Hypothesis

A researcher may postulate a hypothesis:

H1: Tomato plants exhibit a higher rate of growth when planted in
compost rather than in soil.

And a null hypothesis:

H0: Tomato plants do not exhibit a higher rate of growth when planted
in compost rather than soil.

It is important to carefully select the wording of the null, and
ensure that it is as specific as possible. For example, the researcher
might postulate a null hypothesis:

H0: Tomato plants show no difference in growth rates when planted in
compost rather than soil.

There is a major flaw with this H0. If the plants actually grow more
slowly in compost than in soil, an impasse is reached. H1 is not
supported, but neither is H0, because there is a difference in growth
rates.

If the null is rejected, with no alternative, the experiment may be
invalid. This is the reason why science uses a battery of deductive
and inductive processes to ensure that there are no flaws in the
hypotheses.

Many scientists neglect the null, assuming that it is merely the
opposite of the alternative, but it is good practice to spend a little
time creating a sound hypothesis. It is not possible to change any
hypothesis retrospectively, including H0...

http://explorable.com/null-hypothesis.html
TheInquirer
2012-12-25 10:44:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
In science the null hypothesis or default theory is just a way to
start from scratch and then see what the evidence supports. Its a way
to avoid dogmatic bias.
won't that be out of the frying pan, into the fire?

if the null hypothesis is not rejected, does that mean that
the null hypothesis is true?

worse still, if the null hypothesis is accepted at x% level
of significance, do we know the actual probability that it
is mistaken?

[ Remember: Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. ]
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.

Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think my questions
are stupid, you have already proven that you are stupid,
not me. If you don't know the answer, can you please
"pass" to more capable person(s) to answer?
Immortalist
2012-12-25 15:34:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheInquirer
Post by Immortalist
In science the null hypothesis or default theory is just a way to
start from scratch and then see what the evidence supports. Its a way
to avoid dogmatic bias.
won't that be out of the frying pan, into the fire?
No.
Post by TheInquirer
if the null hypothesis is not rejected, does that mean that
the null hypothesis is true?
No, it just weakens the theory it challenges.
Post by TheInquirer
worse still, if the null hypothesis is accepted at x% level
of significance, do we know the actual probability that it
is mistaken?
If matters remain at the level of denial and simple assertion, we have
arrived at an impasse, and neither party to the dispute can claim
victory. It is essential that we move beyond this level of
argumentation. How should we proceed? With impartiality, of course. A
principle of impartiality requires that until some justificatory
argument is offered, we shall not assume that the claims of either
party are justified or unjustified. But here is the crux: this
principle of impartiality curiously favors the skeptic. If the claims
of neither the epistemist nor the skeptic are assumed to be completely
justified, then the perceptual beliefs of the epistemist must not be
assumed to be completely justified. Therefore, they must not be
assumed to constitute knowledge either. In this way, simple fairness
and impartiality in discourse and disputation sustain the case for
skepticism. We must assume at the outset that the beliefs in question,
including those perceptual beliefs cited by the epistemist, are not
completely justified until some argument is presented to justify them.
If skepticism is treated fairly before the bar of evidence, the burden
of proof must reat entirely with the epistemist.

http://tinyurl.com/c5gbpzc
Post by TheInquirer
[ Remember: Just answer the damn question, not the questioner!  Don't
presume. ]
No, you can fuck off on that request.
Post by TheInquirer
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.
- A Skeptical Rejoinder: The Employment of the Notion
of Probability Begs the Question Against the Skeptic

Every attempt to escape skepticism knocks, sooner or later, on the
door of probability. But there is no help behind the door. Indeed once
we pass through it, we shall find ourselves securely locked in the
very den of skepticism. Let us consider how to bolt the door.

If the appeal to probability is to succeed, the epistemist must go
beyond claiming that our corrigible beliefs are based on evidence that
renders them highly probable. It is not enough that a belief be highly
probable; the one who has the belief must know this to be so, or the
belief will again, if true, be so merely as a matter of luck. To see
this, let us turn to the example of the gaming table Imagine that a
person is invited to play a game of "Millee," which is played as
follows: There is a machine with a window, which, when a button is
pushed, closes and subsequently opens to display either a red or a
green square. Moreover, part of the definition of the game involves
the following rule: the machine must be set so that the green square
appears only once in a million plays. Thus the odds are one in a
million that the red square will fail to appear when the window opens.

Imagine that a person. is invited to play Millee but is not told the
odds. He might choose to bet that the red square will appear when the
window opens, and of course he is correct. In spite of the odds in his
favor, we would be entirely justified in saying that his belief that
the red square would appear was, from his point of view, a lucky
guess. The reason is that he does not know that the odds are a million
to one in his favor. Indeed, for all he knows, the odds might be
anything at all. In the absence of,such knowledge, his being right is
nothing more than luck.

Now suppose that a person believes that there really is a tomato in
front of her, and that this belief is based on the evidence of sense
experience, or any other inductive evidence you please. The odds might
be a million to one that her hypothesis will turn out to be true when
based on such evidence. But if the person does not know that these are
the odds, and if, moreover, for all she knows the odds may be anything
at all, then were she fight, this would be nothing more than luck. In
both this case and the case of the person at the gaming table, being
right is a matter of luck, even though the odds are fantastically in
favor of both being right. It is a matter of luck because both of them
are ignorant of the odds.

Of course, both the gambler and the perceptual believer would be in an
entirely different position if they knew the odds. Then, neither would
correctly be described as being right merely through luck. The
question to be answered by the the skeptic is the following: Need we
suppose that the perceptual believer is ignorant of the odds in favor
of her belief? Could not a person who based her belief on evidence
that rendered her belief highly probable also know how probable her
belief is? To establish the case for skepticism, we must prove that
the perceptual believer is inescapably ignorant of such probabilities.

As a first step, let us consider briefly how we ever know anything
about probabilities. The term probability is interpreted in a number
of different ways, but the idea that seems most relevant in this
context is concerned with truth frequency. If a person is to convert
his perceptual beliefs to epistemic gold by his knowledge of
probability, he must know that his belief, based on the evidence he
has, is the kind of belief that is more frequently-indeed, much more
frequently-true than false, when based on the evidence he has. The
perceptual believer must know that perceptual beliefs based on the
usual evidence of sense experience are much more frequently true than
false.

But we cannot know any such thing; for consider the problem a person
faces who wishes to establish that perceptual beliefs based on the
evidence of sense experience are much more frequently true than false.
To fond this out he wouid have to find a sample of perceptual beliefs
and determine how many of them were true. The information about such a
sample would be absolutely essential to his finding out that beliefs
of this kind are much more frequently true than false. But how is he
to acquire this information? To obtain such knowledge, he must be able
to determine how many of the beliefs in his sample are true. To do
this, he must know which of them constitute knowledge and which do
not.

However, this requirement is calamitous, because we have already shown
that a perceptual belief can constitute knowledge only if the person
knows that beliefs of this kind are much more often true than false.
We have now concluded that in order to know that beliefs of this kind
are frequently true, we must first know which beliefs of this kind are
true and which false. Therefore, before we can know that any
perceptual belief is true, we must first know that certain perceptual
beliefs are true. This is an altogether pernicious epistemic
situation. Moreover, the only alternative is skepticism. In short,
either we know that certain perceptual beliefs are true before we know
any perceprua beliefs are true, which is absurd, or we do not know
that any perceptual beliefs are true. It is obvious the latter
alternative must be accepted.

Let us review the argument briefly, In order to escape skepticism
concerning corrigible beliefs, it must be shown that such beliefs are
based on evidence which renders them highly probable, and also that we
know those beliefs are highly probable. To know the latter, we must
know that such beliefs, when based on evidence of a specified sort,
are much more frequently true than false. However, to find out that
such beliefs are much more frequently true than false, we must
consider a sample of such beliefs and determine what percentage of the
beliefs in the sample is true. To determine what percentage of the
beliefs is true, we must know which of a certain sample are true.

Therefore before a person can know that any corrigible belief based on
inductive evidence is true, he must know that a certain probability
statement is true. But he cannot know such a statement is true unless
he already knows that certain corrigible beliefs based on inductive
evidence are true. Therefore, no one can know that any corrigible
belief based on inductive evidence is true. The escape route via
probability is, in fact, an expressway to skepticism.

Philosophical Problems and Arguments: An Introduction
by James W. Cornman, Keith Lehrer, George Sotiros Pappas
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0872201244/
Post by TheInquirer
Just answer the damn question, not the questioner!  Don't
presume.  My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business.  I ask, you answer.  If you think my questions
are stupid, you have already proven that you are stupid,
not me.  If you don't know the answer, can you please
"pass" to more capable person(s) to answer?
Fuck that.
TheInquirer
2012-12-25 16:56:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
Post by TheInquirer
Post by Immortalist
In science the null hypothesis or default theory is just a way to
start from scratch and then see what the evidence supports. Its a way
to avoid dogmatic bias.
won't that be out of the frying pan, into the fire?
No.
why no? if the null hypothesis is used to support the null hypothesis,
isn't that circular argument? and wouldn't this procedure increase
dogmatic bias?
Post by Immortalist
Post by TheInquirer
if the null hypothesis is not rejected, does that mean that
the null hypothesis is true?
No, it just weakens the theory it challenges.
i thought null hypotheses are set up to be rejected, in a
sort of probabilistic "prove by contradiction" manner?
Post by Immortalist
Post by TheInquirer
worse still, if the null hypothesis is accepted at x% level
of significance, do we know the actual probability that it
is mistaken?
If matters remain at the level of denial and simple assertion, we have
arrived at an impasse, and neither party to the dispute can claim
victory. It is essential that we move beyond this level of
argumentation.
precisely my point.
Post by Immortalist
Post by TheInquirer
[ Remember: Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. ]
No, you can fuck off on that request.
actually, it was not directed at you. among all netters, you
so far have been the most valuable at answering all my questions.
other netters are not that helpful or nice.

nevertheless, i'd rather that people stick to the questions and
try not to focus to on me.
Post by Immortalist
- A Skeptical Rejoinder: The Employment of the Notion
of Probability Begs the Question Against the Skeptic
very good. and that was _precisely_ why i asked
Post by Immortalist
Post by TheInquirer
Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think my questions
are stupid, you have already proven that you are stupid,
not me. If you don't know the answer, can you please
"pass" to more capable person(s) to answer?
Fuck that.
actually, it was not directed at you. among all netters, you
so far have been the most valuable at answering all my questions.
other netters are not that helpful or nice.

nevertheless, i'd rather that people stick to the questions and
try not to focus to on me.
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.

Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think my questions
are stupid, you have already proven that you are stupid,
not me. If you don't know the answer, can you please
"pass" to more capable person(s) to answer?
Mike Duffy
2012-12-25 17:05:46 UTC
Permalink
If the null hypothesis is used to support the null hypothesis,
isn't that circular argument?
Not really. It might appear so, but the argumnent can just as easily go in
the other direction. Using complex number theory, it is evident that one
argument is simply the complex conjugate of the other.

And the complex conjugate of a function is equal to the original function
only of the imaginary part is zero. Thus the original argument is
completely real.
--
http://pages.videotron.ca/duffym/index.htm
TheInquirer
2012-12-25 17:09:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
- A Skeptical Rejoinder: The Employment of the Notion
of Probability Begs the Question Against the Skeptic
very good. and that was _precisely_ why i asked
oh, by the way, is it well known that "level of significance" in
statistical tests are just conditional probabilities?
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.

Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think my questions
are stupid, you have already proven that you are stupid,
not me. If you don't know the answer, can you please
"pass" to more capable person(s) to answer?
Immortalist
2012-12-25 18:41:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
Post by TheInquirer
Post by Immortalist
In science the null hypothesis or default theory is just a way to
start from scratch and then see what the evidence supports. Its a way
to avoid dogmatic bias.
won't that be out of the frying pan, into the fire?
No.
why no?  if the null hypothesis is used to support the null hypothesis,
isn't that circular argument?  and wouldn't this procedure increase
dogmatic bias?
possible worlds
Post by Immortalist
Post by TheInquirer
if the null hypothesis is not rejected, does that mean that
the null hypothesis is true?
No, it just weakens the theory it challenges.
i thought null hypotheses are set up to be rejected, in a
sort of probabilistic "prove by contradiction" manner?
No. it is really a test of how well the theory makes any other theory
less likely or even impossible. We must tighten our hypothesis in ways
that make the null alternatives less likely or even impossible. Once
the remaining counter-theories sound supernatural our hypothesis
become null-proofed.

The method of counterexample and possible worlds

...First, we need a test for invalidity, that is, a method of showing
that the conclusion of an argument does not follow validly from the
premises. The technique we shall adopt is known as the method of
counterexample.

Finding a counterexample to an argument is a matter of imagining a
possible world in which the premises are true and the conclusion
false. The possibility of such a world shows the argument is invalid.
You can think of possible worlds as variants of our actual world. For
every way in which our actual world could have been different than it
is, there exists a possible world that is different in this way. For
example: The Iraq crisis might have led to the outbreak of the third
world war; therefore, there exists a possible world in which the
crisis led to the war. Reagan might not have been shot; therefore,
there exists a possible world where he was not shot. Your parents
might never have met; therefore, there is a world in which you were
never born. The expression, 'possible world,' is just a fancy way of
talking about the way things might be but actually are not. Possible
worlds are easily constructed: whenever you imagine some possible
alteration of the actual world, you construct a possible world that
differs in the altered respect from the actual world. Finding a
counterexample to a purportedly valid argument is a matter of
constructing a possible world in which the premises of the argument
come out true and the conclusion comes out false. This shows that it
is possible for the premises to be true and the conclusion false.

You can give your imagination wings in thinking up such worlds and
such examples, but you must not fly beyond the possible. A
counterexample need not be an example of anything that has ever
happened or of anything at all likely to happen. Just as long as the
example clearly describes something possible, a clearly possible world
in which the conclusion is false and the premises true, the argument's
claim to validity is refuted. You can refute invalid arguments by the
use of your imagination. Let us try this out. Consider the following
argument:

All Communists are opposed to capitalism.
Jones is opposed to capitalism.

Therefore
Jones is a Communist.

It is perfectly easy to describe a counterexample that shows that the
conclusion of this argument does not follow from the premises. Imagine
a possible world in which Jones is a person who believes that all
wealth and property should be owned and controlled by his family and
passed on by inheritance. Thus, he rejects both capitalism and
communism in favor of Jonesism, a heretofore unknown economic doctrine
which states that everything should belong to the Joneses. What is
described in this example is a possible world, and, supposing that
both the first and second premises are true, it is an example in which
the premises are true and the conclusion false. This counterexample
shows that it is possible for the premises of the argument to be true
and for the conclusion to be false. The argument has been shown to be
invalid. Imagination triumphs over invalidity. The argument is
destroyed.

The foregoing remarks illustrate the method of counterexample as it
applies to arguments. It is essentially a method for establishing
invalidity. We also have some tests for validity. If the argument is
in one of the valid argument forms cited above, then it is a valid
argument. Moreover, an argument may be shown to be valid by the
repeated use of the argument forms. Yet some arguments are obviously
valid, even though they are not in any of the argument forms
discussed. For example, from a statement such as

Jill is criminal lawyer.

we may obviously validly conclude

Jill is a lawyer.

Since there are valid arguments not covered by any of the argument
forms noted here, we need a procedure for deciding whether an argument
is valid. Our procedure will be as follows. We will regard an argument
as innocent until proven guilty. That is, we accept an argument as
valid until we think of some counterexample to prove that it is
invalid. Of course, this procedure must not be applied thoughtlessly
or uncritically. We must ask ourselves if it is at all possible that
this argument can be shown to be invalid by counterexample. We must
stretch our imaginations across possible worlds. If, after careful
reflection, we conclude that no such examples are to be found, we may
tentatively accept the argument as valid. This is the procedure we
will adopt.

EXERCISES

Find counterexamples to the following arguments. Use your imagination!
Remember that a valid argument may have false premises, so an example -
bowing a premise to be false does not constitute a counterexample
bowing the argument to be invalid.

1. If Smith is the thief, then Jones was involved in the crime.
Smith is not the thief.

Therefore
Jones was not involved in the crime.

2. All people apply for well-paying jobs.
Jane is a person who has a job she applied for.

Therefore
Jane has a well-paying job.

3. Social change always produces violence.
Violence is bad.

Therefore
Social change is bad.

4. If a person knows something, then he must have an idea of it.

Therefore
All a person ever knows are his own ideas.

5. Scientists are constantly discovering that all sensations are
caused by neurological processes.

Therefore
Sensations are nothing but physical processes.

6. I know for certain that I exist.
I do not know for certain that any physical thing exists.

Therefore
I am not a physical thing.

7. No argument has been found to prove mat God exists.

Therefore
God does not exist.

#######################################

Possible worlds: A test of possibility and necessity

There is a test of logical possibility or impossibility and logical
necessity that may prove useful and amusing. It is the imagination of
possible worlds. To decide whether something is logically necessary,
ask yourself whether you can imagine a possible world in which the
statement would be false without changing the meaning of any of its
words. Finding such a possible world is like finding a counterexample.
It is a possible case that refutes the claim that something is
logically necessary. To consider an example, you may think it
obviously true that all thought occurs in brains. Perhaps this is true
in our world. It is, however, easy to imagine a world in which there
are beings, disembodied souls, for example, who think. You do not need
to agree that there actually is any such world, only that it is
possible, to refute the claim that it is logically necessary that all
thought occurs in brains. Thus, even though it might be true in our
world that all thought occurs in brains, it is not logically necessary
that all thought occurs in brains. We can imagine possible worlds in
which beings think without brains. Heaven is one such imagined world,
and, alas, so is hell.

Thus, we have a test, a kind of imagination experiment, to test the
claim that some statement is logically necessary. If you can conceive
of a possible world in which the statement is false, then it is not
logically necessary. This is because the claim that something is
logically necessary is equivalent to the claim that it is true in all
possible worlds and false in none. The appeal to possible worlds is
also useful when considering whether a statement is logically
impossible. Try to imagine a possible world, one which might be quite
different from the actual world, in which the statement is true. If
you can think of such a world, then you will have refuted the claim
that the statement is logically impossible. That is because the claim
that a statement is logically impossible is equivalent to the claim
that there is no possible world in which it is true. Hence, finding a
possible world in which the statement is true refutes the claim that
it is logically impossible. Consider the claim that it is logically
impossible for cats to speak English. No cat in our world speaks
English, of course, but we can imagine a world in which cats evolve in
such a way that they can learn to speak, and that some of them speak
English. Instead of meowing plaintively at the door, cats in this
world say, "I would like to go outside now, please." It won't happen,
but the imagined world is possible and amusing to contemplate. That
suffices to refute the claim that it is logically impossible that cats
should speak English.

Thus, you can test whether a statement is logically impossible by
asking yourself whether you can think of a possible world in which the
statement is true. If you can, then the statement is not logically
impossible. Claims that some statement is necessary or impossible are
implicitly claims about the truth or falsity of the statement in all
possible worlds. The claim that a statement is logically necessary is
equivalent to the claim that it is true in all possible worlds, while
the statement that it is logically impossible is equivalent to the
claim that it is false in all possible worlds. That is the reason the
test works.

Thinking about possible worlds can afford you considerable pleasure
(because you can give full reign to your imagination rather than being
confined to consideration of what the world is actually like. Be
careful, however. Imagination can outrun the possible as well as the
actual. If you imagine a world in which there are round squares
conversing with numbers, you have imagined a world that is not
possible. There is no possible world which contains round squares
because such objects would [be both round and not round, square and
not square. If the world you imagine is implicitly contradictory in
this way, it is not a possible world. So the test must be used with
caution. It is nevertheless useful to philosophers as a standard
method for determining what is called the modality of statements; that
is, their necessity, impossibility or possibility.

May we appeal to possible worlds to show that a statement is logically
necessary, or that a statement is logically impossible, rather than
just attempting to refute such claims? If you have attempted to
imagine possible worlds in which a statement is false, and after a
judicious effort can find none, you may conclude tentatively that the
statement is necessary. Similarly, if you have attempted to imagine
possible worlds in which a statement is true, and after careful
deliberation you can find none, you may conclude tentatively that the
statement is impossible. You may only conclude tentatively that a
statement is necessary or impossible, as a result of your search for a
possible world; for the claim of necessity or impossibility is a claim
about all possible worlds. You may, of course, overlook some possible
world in your consideration. As you become a seasoned possible world
explorer, you will become more trustworthy in discovering possible
worlds. Consequently, your use of the test will become more
trustworthy, and you will become a more skilled philosopher.

To determine whether a statement is logically necessary or logically
impossible, it is importanHo understand the meaning of the statement
as clearly as possible. Indeed, to determine whether you have
described a counterexample or a possible world, you must often reflect
on the meaning of the words in your description to insure that no
contradiction is concealed in it. Definitions tell us what a word
means, and so we shall now turn to a consideration of definitions.

Philosophical Problems and Arguments: An Introduction
by James W. Cornman, Keith Lehrer, George Sotiros Pappas
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0872201244/
Post by Immortalist
Post by TheInquirer
worse still, if the null hypothesis is accepted at x% level
of significance, do we know the actual probability that it
is mistaken?
If matters remain at the level of denial and simple assertion, we have
arrived at an impasse, and neither party to the dispute can claim
victory. It is essential that we move beyond this level of
argumentation.
precisely my point.
No. The impasse is created by people trying to force each other to
accept some propositions without any evidence to support them. To move
beyond the point of what are called "givens" or "givenness" that need
no justification.

A direct challenge to the sceptic's contention that nothing can be
known with certainty.

Here we see an attempt to show that there is something whose existence
cannot be denied and which is such that we can and do know it with
certainty. It is commonly referred to as 'the given'. It is what is
immediately presented to consciousness. Even in erroneous perception,
we will be told to just accept, something is still perceived. Neither
illusion nor hallucination is characterized by perceptual vacuity -
there always is something given. Berkeley spoke of 'the proper object
of the senses', and A. J. Ayer and others of 'sense-data'.

What all foundationalist theories do have in common is the view that
all justification ends with evidence that justifies but is justified
by nothing else. Such stopping points are the foundations of all
justification, and therefore of all knowledge. An absurd claim will be
made that this stopping point is not simply a "basic belief," but some
experience in itself. But we will find that a resort is made to some
belief or other about the state of this being and it's reason for
being or even that it *be.* Any version of foundationalism of this
sort is "doxastic" foundationalism, that is, a version where the
foundational evidence is a belief. (The Greek word 'doxa' signifies
'belief' in English.)

Next we will be told that, even if it does turn out to be a belief
that is used as the final justification, next the attempt will be made
to confuse this belief with some meaningless propositions that can't
properly stand for what is -being- addressed.

But there will be no escape, basic beliefs must be justified in order
to justify other beliefs. Since they are not justified by anything
else, the basic beliefs could only be self-justified. As we will see,
a foundationalism described in the way will have a hard time getting
off the ground.

Philosophical Problems and Arguments: An Introduction
by James W. Cornman, Keith Lehrer, George Sotiros Pappas
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0872201244/

The Given

The epistemological sceptic notes that our faculties of knowledge, in
short reason and the senses, are fallible. Fallacious reasoning
occurs, just as sensory illusions and hallucinations occur. On account
of this fallibility of our faculties of knowledge, the sceptic is
disposed to conclude that through reliance on them nothing can be
known with certainty. There are many ways in which attempts have been
made to answer the epistemological sceptic. Sometimes, the sceptic's
claims have been said to be incoherent in the sense that to be true,
or even to make sense at all, they require assumptions which make them
false. Alternatively, the claims have been said to be unintelligible
in the sense that facts about the nature of language and its use
preclude them. Also, the sceptic's arguments themselves have been
challenged on the score of invalidity - it is denied that they succeed
in showing what they purport to show. More and more today, it has been
maintained that the sceptic is misdirected about the nature of
existence and of knowledge.

There is one other way, different from all of these, in which the
sceptic's position has been opposed. This involves a direct challenge
to the sceptic's contention that nothing can be known with certainty.
Here, an attempt is made to show that there is something whose
existence cannot be denied and which is such that we can and do know
it with certainty. It is commonly referred to as 'the given'. It is
what is immediately presented to consciousness. Even in erroneous
perception, we are told, something is still perceived. Neither
illusion nor hallucination is characterized by perceptual vacuity -
there always is something given. Berkeley spoke of 'the proper object
of the senses', and A. J. Ayer and others of 'sense-data'. When one
supposedly sees a penny, according to these philosophers, one sees not
the penny itself but an elliptical sense-datum.

This view of sense-data as the incorrigibly given in perception is
connected with foundationalism. Beginning from sense-data,
foundationalism seeks to show how, from such elements, we construct
objects like the penny. The methods of construction are intended to
transfer to our knowledge-claims concerning three-dimensional objects
something of the certainty of knowledge associated with sense-data.
Rudolf Carnap made strides towards bringing about such a construction,
but W. V. Quine's systematic criticisms of the programme and its
devices have made it evident to many that it will not be completed.
And the assumption of sense-data known incorrigibly has not been
without its critics (e.g. the later Wittgenstein and J. L. Austin).

http://xrefer.com/entry.jsp?xrefid=552176
Post by Immortalist
Post by TheInquirer
[ Remember: Just answer the damn question, not the questioner!  Don't
presume. ]
No, you can fuck off on that request.
actually, it was not directed at you.  among all netters, you
so far have been the most valuable at answering all my questions.
other netters are not that helpful or nice.
nevertheless, i'd rather that people stick to the questions and
try not to focus to on me.
Post by Immortalist
- A Skeptical Rejoinder: The Employment of the Notion
of Probability Begs the Question Against the Skeptic
very good.  and that was _precisely_ why i asked
Only defeats the complete certainty dogma but leaves intact inductive
logic solutions.

Coherence theory: "An empirical belief is realatively true if and only
if it coheres with a system of other beliefs, which together form a
comprehensive account of reality."

Stephen J. Gould, the Harvard Paleontologist, offers this definition:
In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it
would be perverse to withhold provisional assent."

Succesfully Competitive Inductive Cogency:
Depends upon the evidential and conceptual ("context") of reasoning.
An inductive argument from evidence to hypothesis is inductively
cogent if and only if the hypothesis is that hypothesis which, of all
the competing hypothesis, has the greatest probability of being true
on the basis of the evidence. Thus, whether it is reasonable to accept
a hypothesis as true, if the statements of evidence are true, is
determined by whether that hypothesis is the most probable, on the
evidence, of all those with which it competes.

Philosophical Problems and Arguments : An Introduction
by James W. Cornman, Keith Lehrer, George Sotiros Pappas
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0872201244/104-9938841-0500749

Epistemologists find a number of problems with finding an meta-
justification standard for justifying emperical beliefs.

http://www.bu.edu/wcp/Papers/TKno/TKnoHowa.htm

1. Suppose, that there are basic empirical beliefs, that is, emperical
beliefs (a) which are epistemically justified, and (b) whose
justification does not depend on that of any further emperical
beliefs.

2. For a belief to be episemically justified requires that there be a
reason why it is likely to be true.

3. A belief is justified for a person only if he is in cognitive
possession of such a reason.

4. A person is in cognitive possession of such a reason only if he
believes with justification the premises from which it follows that
the belief is likely to be true.

5. The premises of such a justifying argument must include at least
one empirical premise.

6. So, the justification of a supposed basic empirical belief depends
on the justification of at least one other empirical belief,
contradicting 1.

7. So, there can be no basic empirical beliefs including completely
justified sceptical beliefs.

The 7 propositions seem to eliminate the possibility of emperical
justification of any and all emperical beliefs. But it can lead to
this untruthfullness of human beliefs in three ways which deal with
the apparent "regress" of one belief depending upon another which
depends upon another and so on:

If the regress of emperical justification does not terminate in basic
emperical beliefs, then it must either:

(1) terminate in unjustified beleifs

(2) go on infinitely (without circularity)

(3) circle back upon itself in some way.

If we think about justification moving in a linear direction, with one
proposition becomeing the justification for another we run into an
viscious regress that doesnt seem to end. It can be open ended and go
on forever or it can become circular where each support depending on
the last leads to the same supports over time. This is how scepticism
defeated foundationalism. It seems that all we were left with a hope
for escape from this dilemma of no certain knowledge is a modified
version of the circular argument. Instead of a linear regress of
justifiactions we seek a nonlinear context of groups of evidences or
propositions emerging more evidence than other means of gaining
supports from evidences and propositions. Though we close the circle,
different circlular arguments, corespond to, predict, and manilulate,
events in the world, than other such arguments. If we have a
competition amoungst such partial certainties, we gain at least the
best knowledge we can find.

Quine's Web of Beliefs

According to Quine's metaphor of the web, all of our beliefs justify
and are justified by all of our other beliefs. They are all connected
by an explanatory network, and changes in one place can require
changes elsewhere. Thus, all of our beliefs are connected to our
observations of the world. What we observe can lead us to change any
of our beliefs, no matter how certain we may have been that they were
true. ...we try to change as few beliefs as possible, but we cannot
rule out the possibility that some observations will require sweeping
changes in the web.

Such sweeping changes do not occur often. When they do occur, they are
usually heralded as scientific revolutions, such as when Albert
Einstein (1879-1955) replaced Isaac Newton's (1642-1727) world view
with his special and general theories of relativity, and when Charles
Darwin (1809-1882) presented his theory of evolution, and when Sigmund
Freud (1856-1939) revealed the powers of unconscious motivation.
Similar sweeping changes may also occur in our personal lives, as when
we embrace a new religion with great fervor or decide that atheism is
the correct attitude and reject all religion.

...Are any beliefs immune from this process? Many philosophers believe
so. They hold that some beliefs do not depend on observation for their
justification, and that no observations whatever could show them to be
wrong. Beliefs of this type are said to count as a priori knowledge,
meaning that their justification is independent of experience. A
priori knowledge is contrasted with empirical knowledge, which does
depend on observation for its justification.

Thus, these philosophers give certain beliefs a privileged place in
the web. They are protected by something like a one-way glass. The
beliefs behind the glass, our a priori knowledge, provide
justification for the beliefs in front of it, our empirical beliefs,
but nothing that happens in front of the glass can change what goes on
behind it...

...The web of belief is set up in such a way that it is always
possible to hold any belief, come what may...

...Think of our beliefs as being spread throughout our web. Some
beliefs are in the center, some on the edges, and the rest scattered
in between. The beliefs on the edges are those we are most willing to
give up in the face of unexpected observations. The ones in the center
are those we are least willing to give up, those we are most likely to
hold, come what may. For most of us, the belief that tables do not
move themselves is much closer to the center than the belief that we
have not misjudged the distance to the table. A great number of
unexpected observations would have to occur before we would begin to
believe that tables move themselves. As we get closer and closer to
the center, our beliefs seem to be totally protected from unexpected
observations, so protected that we cannot imagine changing them. The
belief that twice two is four, for example, seems entirely immune from
revision.

Although most of us put the same beliefs in the center, it is possible
to put anything there...

Persons And Their World: An Introduction to Philosophy - Jeffrey Olen
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0075543117/
Post by Immortalist
Post by TheInquirer
Just answer the damn question, not the questioner!  Don't
presume.  My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business.  I ask, you answer.  If you think my questions
are stupid, you have already proven that you are stupid,
not me.  If you don't know the answer, can you please
"pass" to more capable person(s) to answer?
Fuck that.
actually, it was not directed at you.  among all netters, you
so far have been the most valuable at answering all my questions.
other netters are not that helpful or nice.
nevertheless, i'd rather that people stick to the questions and
try not to focus to on me.
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.
Just answer the damn question, not the questioner!  Don't
presume.  My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business.  I ask, you answer.  If you think my questions
are stupid, you have already proven that you are stupid,
not me.  If you don't know the answer, can you please
"pass" to more capable person(s) to answer?
Offensive and detracts from the little persuasiveness your argument
has. In years past such weakness would have been attacked and fucked
from all sides. Take it from one of the few last surviving honest to
goodness trolls. You cannot win.
TheInquirer
2012-12-26 18:52:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
Post by TheInquirer
why no? if the null hypothesis is used to support the null hypothesis,
isn't that circular argument? and wouldn't this procedure increase
dogmatic bias?
possible worlds
can there be more than two possible worlds?

is there a way to tell if our world is the same as one of the possible
worlds?

if A and not A are both possible, why should i prefer one over the other?

is it also possible that there can be a higher view that explains
two or more seemingly contradictory views?
Post by Immortalist
Post by TheInquirer
i thought null hypotheses are set up to be rejected, in a
sort of probabilistic "prove by contradiction" manner?
No.
you are not referring to standard statistical procedures, are you?


it is really a test of how well the theory makes any other theory
Post by Immortalist
less likely
or even impossible. We must tighten our hypothesis in ways
Post by Immortalist
that make the null alternatives less likely or even impossible. Once
the remaining counter-theories sound
supernatural

what is supernatural? isn't it just knowledge / technology that is
currently not known?


our hypothesis
Post by Immortalist
become null-proofed.
To determine whether a statement is logically necessary or logically
impossible, it is importanHo understand the meaning of the statement
as clearly as possible.
fully agreed.

so are there a universally agreed definitions of the terms "deity" and
"supernatural"?
Post by Immortalist
Post by TheInquirer
Post by Immortalist
Post by TheInquirer
worse still, if the null hypothesis is accepted at x% level
of significance, do we know the actual probability that it
is mistaken?
If matters remain at the level of denial and simple assertion, we have
arrived at an impasse, and neither party to the dispute can claim
victory. It is essential that we move beyond this level of
argumentation.
precisely my point.
No.
it was meant to be a question to spur thinking and discussion. i'm
not sure standard statistical procedures are epistemologically sound.
are they?



The impasse is created by people trying to force each other to
Post by Immortalist
accept some propositions without any evidence to support them.
it's worse if the definitions are fuzzy, isn't it?
Post by Immortalist
A direct challenge to the sceptic's contention that nothing can be
known with certainty.
not sure if that's my brand of scepticism or skepticism.
Post by Immortalist
Coherence theory: "An empirical belief is realatively true if and only
if it coheres with a system of other beliefs, which together form a
comprehensive account of reality."
i'm not a professional philosopher (obviously), but i have heard of this
one. i might be using a little of this.
Post by Immortalist
In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it
would be perverse to withhold provisional assent."
what is "perverse"? is the scientific community the final judge? what
if other communities (not necessarily uniformed or unintelligent, but
just happened to have chosen a different career path) disagree?

are there ways to proof against in-breeding? are there ways to proof
against lack of academic freedom (e.g. pressure from employers, funding
agencies)?
Post by Immortalist
Depends upon the evidential and conceptual ("context") of reasoning.
An inductive argument from evidence to hypothesis is inductively
cogent if and only if the hypothesis is that hypothesis which, of all
the competing hypothesis, has the greatest probability of being true
on the basis of the evidence.
this one ... looks promising. might be what i am intuitively trying
to do without knowing the technical term for it.

question: how do i assign probability?

[ note: if one reads textbooks on probability written by mathematicians
and statisticians but not those written by scientists and engineers, one
would find that probability and randomness is only defined
axiomatically. there can be different probability measures. ]



It can be open ended and go
Post by Immortalist
on forever or it can become circular where each support depending on
the last leads to the same supports over time. This is how scepticism
defeated foundationalism. It seems that all we were left with a hope
for escape from this dilemma of no certain knowledge is a modified
version of the circular argument. Instead of a linear regress of
justifiactions we seek a nonlinear context of groups of evidences or
propositions emerging more evidence than other means of gaining
supports from evidences and propositions. Though we close the circle,
different circlular arguments, corespond to, predict, and manilulate,
events in the world, than other such arguments. If we have a
competition amoungst such partial certainties, we gain at least the
best knowledge we can find.
how about trying to find a synthesis among competing axiom sets?
Post by Immortalist
Quine's Web of Beliefs
but we cannot
Post by Immortalist
rule out the possibility that some observations will require sweeping
changes in the web.
... that leads a few people to a mode of intense questioning?
Post by Immortalist
Thus, these philosophers give certain beliefs a privileged place in
the web. They are protected by something like a one-way glass.
examples?
Post by Immortalist
Post by TheInquirer
Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think my questions
are stupid, you have already proven that you are stupid,
not me. If you don't know the answer, can you please
"pass" to more capable person(s) to answer?
Offensive
so?


and detracts from the little persuasiveness

what position am i peddling?
Post by Immortalist
You cannot win.
win what?
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.

[ since you have been providing useful leads for my questions,
i take it off, just for you. OK?]
Immortalist
2012-12-27 17:15:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheInquirer
Post by Immortalist
why no?  if the null hypothesis is used to support the null hypothesis,
isn't that circular argument?  and wouldn't this procedure increase
dogmatic bias?
possible worlds
can there be more than two possible worlds?
Flipping a coin has only two neat possible worlds for you, head or
tails. Other situations have more possible outcomes and that many
possible world explanations.

It might help to see the difference between deductive certainty vs
inductive probability.

Two views of Deduction & Induction:

View 1: conclusion;
Deduction = infers particular from general truths
Induction = infers general from particular truths

View 2: conclusion;
Deduction = follows with absolute necessity
Induction = follows with some degree of probability

In defense of view 2:

Deduction and Induction From
Introduction to Logic Irving M. Copi
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0130749214/

1.6 Deduction and Induction

Arguments are traditionally divided into two different types,
deductive and inductive. Every argument involves the claim (noted
earlier) that its premisses provide some grounds for the truth of its
conclusion, but only a deductive argument involves the claim that its
premisses provide conclusive grounds for its conclusion. When the
reasoning in a deductive argument is correct, we call that argument
valid; when the reasoning of a deductive argument is incorrect, we
call that argument invalid.

We may therefore define validity as follows. A deductive argument is
valid when its premisses, if true, do provide conclusive grounds for
the truth of its conclusion. In a valid deductive argument (but not in
an inductive argument), premisses and conclusion are so related that
it is absolutely impossible for the premisses to be true unless the
conclusion is true also.

In every deductive argument, either the premisses succeed in providing
conclusive grounds for the truth of the conclusion, or they do not
succeed. Therefore, every deductive argument is either valid or
invalid. This is a point of some importance: If a deductive argument
is not valid, it must be invalid; if it is not invalid, it must be
valid. But note that the terms "valid" and "invalid" do not apply to
inductive arguments; for inductive arguments, other terms of appraisal
are required.

In the realm of deductive logic, the central task is to clarify the
relation between premisses and conclusion in valid arguments, and thus
to allow us to discriminate valid from invalid arguments...

An inductive argument makes a very different claim: not that its
premisses give conclusive grounds for the truth of its conclusion, but
only that its premisses provide some support for that conclusion.
Inductive arguments, therefore, cannot be "valid" or "invalid" in the
sense in which these terms are applied to deductive arguments. Of
course, inductive arguments may be evaluated as better or worse,
according to the degree of support given to their conclusions by their
premisses. Thus, the greater the likelihood, or probability, that its
premisses confer on its conclusion, the greater the merit of an
inductive argument. But that likelihood, even when the premisses are
all true, must fall short of certainty. The theory of induction and
the methods of calculating probabilities are presented in Part 3 of
this book.

The distinction between deductive and inductive arguments is sometimes
drawn in a different way-centering on the relative generality of their
premisses and conclusions. Deductive inferences, it is sometimes said,
move from the general to the particular, while inductive inferences
move from the particular to the general. On analysis, this way of
distinguishing them proves unsatisfactory. ["William Whewell, in The
Philosophy of the Inductive Sciences (1840), put it thus: ". . . in
Deduction we infer particular from general truths; while in Induction
we infer general from particular."]

In that tradition, the classical example of a deductive argument:

All humans are mortal.
Socrates is human.
Therefore Socrates is mortal.

does indeed have a particular conclusion, inferred validly from two
premisses of which the first is a general or universal proposition.
[The term "particular" was used by Whewell, and other logicians in his
tradition, to refer to propositions about a single thing (e.g.,
Socrates) as well as to propositions about some but not necessarily
all members of a given class (e.g., some humans). More recent logical
practice uses the phrase "particular propositions" to refer only to
the latter group. At this point, we are examining Whewell's view and
therefore follow his usage.] It is also true that a very common form
of inductive argument is one in which a general or universal
conclusion is inferred from a group of premisses, all of which are
particular, as in this example:

Socrates is human and mortal.
Xanthippe is human and mortal
Sappho is human and mortal.
Therefore probably all humans are mortal.

But this method of distinguishing between deduction and induction does
not always work. The difficulty lies in the fact that a valid
deductive argument may have universal propositions for its conclusion
as well as for its premisses, as in:

All animals are mortal.
All humans are animals.
Therefore all humans are mortal.

And a valid deductive argument may have particular propositions for
its premisses as well as for its conclusion, as in:

If Socrates is human then Socrates is mortal.
Socrates is human.
Therefore Socrates is mortal.

Moreover, an inductive argument need not rely only on particular
premisses but may have universal (i.e., general) propositions for its
premisses as well for its conclusions, as in:

All cows are mammals and have lungs.
All whales are mammals and have lungs.
All humans are mammals and have lungs.
Therefore probably all mammals have lungs.

And further, an inductive argument may have a particular proposition
as its conclusion, as in:

Hitler was a dictator and was ruthless.
Stalin was a dictator and was ruthless.
Castro is a dictator.
Therefore Castro is probably ruthless.

These counterexamples show that it is not satisfactory to characterize
deductive arguments as those in which particular conclusions are
inferred from general premisses; nor is it satisfactory to
characterize inductive arguments as those in which general conclusions
are inferred from particular premisses.

The fundamental difference between these two kinds of argument lies in
the claims that are made about the relations between premisses and
conclusion. Deductive arguments are those in which a very strict or
close relationship is claimed to hold between the premisses and the
conclusions. If a deductive argument is valid, then, given the truth
of its premisses, its conclusion must be true no matter what else may
be the case.

For example, if it is true that all humans are mortal, and if it is
true that Socrates is a human, then it must be true that Socrates is
mortal no matter what else may be true in the world and no matter what
other premisses are added or other information discovered. If we find
that Socrates is ugly, or that angels are immortal, or that cows give
milk, this finding affects the validity of the argument not one bit;
the conclusion that Socrates is mortal follows from any enlarged set
of premisses with deductive certainty, just as it did from the two
premisses originally given. If an argument is valid, nothing
additional in the world can make it more valid; if a conclusion is
validly inferred from some set of premisses, nothing can be added to
that set to make that conclusion follow more validly or more strictly
or more logically.

But the relation between premisses and conclusion claimed for even the
best inductive argument is much less strict and very different in
kind. Consider the following inductive argument:

Most corporation lawyers are conservatives.
Barbara Shane is a corporation lawyer.
Therefore Barbara Shane is probably a conservative.

This is a pretty good inductive argument; its first premiss is true,
and if its second premiss is also true, its conclusion is more likely
true than false. But in this case, if new premisses are added to the
original pair the resulting argument may be substantially weakened or
(depending on the premisses added) strengthened. Suppose we add the
premiss that

Barbara Shane is an officer of the American Civil Liberties Union
(ACLU).

and also add the (true) premiss that:

Most officers of the ACLU are not conservatives.

Now the conclusion [that Barbara Shane is a conservative] no longer
seems very probable; the original inductive argument has been greatly
weakened by the presence of this additional information about Barbara
Shane. Indeed, if the final premiss were transformed into the
universal proposition:

No officers of the ACLU are conservatives.

the opposite of the original conclusion would now follow deductively,
that is, validly, from the set of premisses affirmed.

On the other hand, if we enlarge the original set of premisses by
adding the following additional premisses instead:

Barbara Shane served in the cabinet of President Ronald Reagan.

and

Barbara Shane has long been an officer of the National Rifle
Association.

then the original conclusion follows with a greater likelihood from
this enlarged set of premisses than it did from the original set.

The strength of the claim about the relation between the premisses and
the conclusion of the argument is the nub of the difference between
deductive and inductive arguments. We characterize the two types of
arguments as follows: A deductive argument is one whose conclusion is
claimed to follow from its premisses with absolute necessity, this
necessity not being a matter of degree and not depending in any way on
whatever else may be the case; in sharp contrast, an inductive
argument is one whose conclusion is claimed to follow from its
premisses only with probability, this probability being a matter of
degree and dependent upon what else may be the case.

Although probability is the essence of the relation between premisses
and conclusion in inductive arguments, such arguments do not always
acknowledge explicitly that their conclusions are inferred only with
some degree of probability. On the other hand, the mere presence of
the word "probability" within an argument is no sure indication that
the argument is inductive, because there are some strictly deductive
arguments about probabilities themselves. Arguments of this kind, in
which the probability of a certain combination of events is deduced
from the probabilities of other events, are discussed in Chapter 14.

SUMMARY OF SECTION 1.6

In this section, we discuss the essential nature of deductive and of
inductive arguments. The core of the difference between deductive and
inductive arguments lies in the strength of the claim that is made
about the relation between the premisses of the argument and its
conclusion.

In deductive arguments, the conclusion is claimed to follow from its
premisses with absolute necessity; in inductive arguments, the
conclusion is claimed to follow from its premisses only with some
degree of probability.

A deductive argument is valid if its premisses do provide conclusive
proof of its conclusion; otherwise it is invalid. But the terms
"validity" and "invalidity" do not apply to inductive arguments, which
are appraised with other terms.

The addition of new premisses may alter the strength of an inductive
argument, but a deductive argument, if valid, cannot be made more
valid or invalid by the addition of any premisses.

Introduction to Logic
by Irving M. Copi, Carl Cohen
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0130749214/qid=1095180612/
Post by TheInquirer
is there a way to tell if our world is the same as one of the possible
worlds?
We are trapped with using Mills Methods of inductive probability to
determine that.

The method of agreement involves ascertaining a "common factor. The
common factor should be one that is present whenever the effect is
present.

The method of difference involves evaluating two cases, one in which
the effect is present, and one where it is absent. If when the effect
is absent, the possible cause "X" is also absent, the test lends
support to "X" as the cause.

The joint method involves combining the first two methods.

The method of concomitant variation involves showing that as one
factor varies, another varies in a corresponding way.

The method of residues involves "subtracting out" those aspects of the
effect whose causes are known and concluding that the rest of the
effect ("the residue") is due to an additional cause.

http://www.ehow.com/how_4857860_identify-mills-methods-of-induction.html

"If two or more instances of the phenomenon under investigation have
only one circumstance in common, the circumstance in which alone all
the instances agree, is the cause (or effect) of the given
phenomenon."

"If an instance in which the phenomenon under investigation occurs,
and an instance in which it does not occur, have every circumstance in
common save one, that one occurring only in the former; the
circumstance in which alone the two instances differ, is the effect,
or the cause, or an indispensable part of the cause, of the
phenomenon."

"If two or more instances in which the phenomenon occurs have only one
circumstance in common, while two or more instances in which it does
not occur have nothing in common save the absence of that
circumstance: the circumstance in which alone the two sets of
instances differ, is the effect, or cause, or a necessary part of the
cause, of the phenomenon."

"Whatever phenomenon varies in any manner whenever another phenomenon
varies in some particular manner, is either a cause or an effect of
that phenomenon, or is connected with it through some fact of
causation."

"Deduct from any phenomenon such part as is known by previous
inductions to be the effect of certain antecedents, and the residue of
the phenomenon is the effect of the remaining antecedents."

http://www.ehow.com/how_4857860_identify-mills-methods-of-induction.html
Post by TheInquirer
if A and not A are both possible, why should i prefer one over the other?
In Vegas we can bet on the black or the red even though only one is
the winner. Some other possible outcomes have different probabilities
than a 50/50 chance.

- A priori/a posteriori, analytic/synthetic, necessary/contingent

In this chapter we have learned of three ways to characterize
statements that are of particular interest to the philosopher: each
statement is (i) either necessary or contingent, (ii) either analytic
or synthetic, (iii) either a priori or empirical (or a posteriori). We
shall now take a brief look at how these three distinctions are
interrelated.

First, notice that these three distinctions pertain to three distinct
aspects of a statement.

1. The necessary/contingent distinction concerns the modal status of a
statement. To say that a statement is necessarily true is to say that
it must be true or that it is true in all possible worlds. A statement
is contingently true in case it just happens to be true because of the
way the actual world is.

2. The analytic/synthetic distinction concerns the basis of a
statement's truth or falsity. To say that a statement is analytically
true is to say that its truth is grounded solely in the meaning of its
terms and the laws of logic. A statement is synthetically true just in
case its truth is not grounded exclusively on the meaning of its terms
and on the laws of logic.

3. The a priori/a posteriori distinction concerns the epistemic status
of a statement. To say that a statement is true a priori is to say
that its truth can be known without appeal to experience. A statement
is true a posteriori just in case its truth can only be known by
relying on experience.

Having noted the differences between these three distinctions,
consider their similarities. The most striking observation about these
three distinctions is that they seem to divide up the set of
statements into exactly the same subclasses. That is, we can use each
one of the three distinctions to divide the set of statements into two
classes: the one consists of necessary, analytic, and a priori
statements; the other contains contingent, synthetic, and a posteriori
statements. But this neat division of statements into two groups is
not universally accepted. The most notable dissenters have been
Immanuel Kant and, in our times, Saul Kripke. Kant argued that some
statements are necessary, synthetic and a priori; for example, "Every
event has a cause." Ever since, "the problem of the synthetic a
priori" has occupied a fairly central position on the philosophical
stage. Recently, Kripke argued that some statements are necessary,
synthetic, and a posteriori. "Water is H2O," "Heat is mean molecular
energy," and other such theoretical identifications are examples of
such a posteriori necessities.

Philosophical Problems and Arguments: An Introduction
by James W. Cornman, Keith Lehrer, George Sotiros Pappas
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0872201244/
Post by TheInquirer
is it also possible that there can be a higher view that explains
two or more seemingly contradictory views?
My specialty and favorite part of philosophy is Epistemology which
like Ethics or Religion are just three meta philosophy approaches of
the many that deal with multiple arguments sub arguments in their
domains.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epistemology/
http://www.iep.utm.edu/epistemo/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics
http://www.iep.utm.edu/ethics/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_religion
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/philosophy-religion/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy
Post by TheInquirer
Post by Immortalist
i thought null hypotheses are set up to be rejected, in a
sort of probabilistic "prove by contradiction" manner?
No.
you are not referring to standard statistical procedures, are you?
  it is really a test of how well the theory makes any other theory> less likely
Yes if using inductive logic, see above.
Post by TheInquirer
or even impossible. We must tighten our hypothesis in ways
Post by Immortalist
that make the null alternatives less likely or even impossible. Once
the remaining counter-theories sound
supernatural
what is supernatural?  isn't it just knowledge / technology that is
currently not known?
It refers to how believable vs far out the theory and its evidence
sosund.

In science, a theory is an explanation. Evolution is a theory, just
like gravitation. Gravity is not a law of nature but an explanation of
observations. If you drop something, it's going to fall. That's an
observation: unsupported things fall. But you explain that observation
with the theory of gravity, which is that the mass of what whatever it
is you dropped, a pencil or a pen or something, is attracted by the
mass...it's really a theory of gravity? But remember, a theory is an
explanation.

For example this Matrix movie like theory sounds unlikely but has not
been shown to be impossible so it is inductive and could be true but
probably not.

Dr. Know & the Braino Helmet

Imagime that a superscientist invents machine--we shall call it a
"braino," - that enables him to produce hallucianations in certain
subjects . The machine operates by influencing the brain of a subject
who wears a special cap, called a "braino cap." when the braino cap is
placed on a subject's head, the operator of the braino can affect his
brain so as to produce any hallucination in the subject that the
operator wishes. The braino is a hallucination-producing machine. The
hallucinations produced by it may be as incomplete, systematic, and
coherent as the operator of the branio desires to make them.

The present argument starts from the premise that the braino is a
logical possibility, and consequently that there should be
hallucinations that are coherent, complete, and systematic in every
way. From the premise of logical possibility, we conclude that we in
fact have no way of telling whether or not we are hallucinating.

If the braino is a logical possibility, then how can we tell that
hallucinations are not in fact so hard to detect? On the contrary, we
may suffer hallucinations that we cannot detect. If it is logically
possible that hallucinations should be coherent, complete, and
systematic in every way, then there is no way of detecting at any
moment that we are not suffering from a hallucionation.

How we can tell that we are not hallucinating. The braino argument is
intended to establish that we can never tell this, even if we can
sometimes tell that we are hallucinating. Consider some perceptual
belief that you would maintain does not from hallucinations. what
experiences guarantee this? Indeed, what experiences provide you with
any evidence of it?

Notice that whatever experience you indicate, the braino argument will
be quite sufficient to prove that such an experience is no guarantee
against hallucianation. All we need do is imagine that you have,
unknown to yourself, the braino cap on your head. the operator of the
braino is producing the very experiences you claim guarantee that you
are not hallucinating.

Imagine that all people are controlled by the braino and that the
machine is run by some evil being, Dr. Know, who plots to keep us
completely in error through hallucinations. Dr. Know does not wish to
be detected, so he supplies hallucinations that are coherent,
complete, and systematic. Indeed, the hallucinations he produced in us
are a PERFECT COUNTERFEIT OF REALITY.

Our experiences fulfill our expectations and contain no more surprises
than we would expect from reality. But is it not reality we
experience; our perceptual beliefs about the world are quite mistaken,
for the source of our experiences is a mere machine, the braino, which
creates hallutionations. In such a predicament we might have just the
sort of perceptual beliefs we now have, based on experiences exactly
similar to those we now have. But our perceptual beliefs would be
altogether false.

The imagined situation is exactly similar to ours with respect to the
reasons or evidence we would have for our perceptual beliefs.
Experience is virtually the same in both cases. Consequently, if we
lack knowledge in one situation, we must surely lack it in the other.
Obviously, we lack knowledge when we are controlled by the braino, for
then our perceptual beliefs are false. Hence, we also lack knowledge
in our present situation. More precisely, our perceptual beliefs fail
to constitute knowledge in either case.

We believe that we are not controlled by such a machine, and if we are
fortunate in this belief, then no doubt many of our perceptual beliefs
are true. It is, however, good fortune and not good evidence that we
should thank for correctness of these beliefs.

We are just lucky if there is no Dr. Know controlling us with a
braino; and from that good fortune may result the further good fortune
that most of our perceptual beliefs are true. it is just a matter of
luck, however, and nothing epistemologically more glorious than that.

If a belief is true as a result of luck, then it is a lucky guess--not
knowledge.

Adapted from Keith Lehrer
Philosophical Problems and Arguments: An Introduction
by James W. Cornman, Keith Lehrer, George Sotiros Pappas
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0872201244/
http://books.google.com/books?id=cRHegYZgyfUC&printsec=frontcover
Post by TheInquirer
our hypothesis
Post by Immortalist
become null-proofed.
To determine whether a statement is logically necessary or logically
impossible, it is important to understand the meaning of the statement
as clearly as possible.
fully agreed.
so are there a universally agreed definitions of the terms "deity" and
"supernatural"?
I only used the term as an adjetive to the noun likeliness or
probability.
Post by TheInquirer
Post by Immortalist
Post by Immortalist
Post by TheInquirer
worse still, if the null hypothesis is accepted at x% level
of significance, do we know the actual probability that it
is mistaken?
If matters remain at the level of denial and simple assertion, we have
arrived at an impasse, and neither party to the dispute can claim
victory. It is essential that we move beyond this level of
argumentation.
precisely my point.
No.
it was meant to be a question to spur thinking and discussion.  i'm
not sure standard statistical procedures are epistemologically sound.
are they?
Inductive Logic is part of Epistemology: see above.
Post by TheInquirer
  The impasse is created by people trying to force each other to
Post by Immortalist
accept some propositions without any evidence to support them.
it's worse if the definitions are fuzzy, isn't it?
A dogma, as we are using the term, is an assumption one makes
uncritically, with no attempt at reflective justification, and which
one feels is perfectly evident, something which, stands in no need of
serious examination. The unquestioned assumption that we gain
knowledge of the existence and characteristics of ordinary objects by
means of perception is a dogma...

...If a person says that he knows the answer to some question or
problem, and then tells us what he knows, his claim to know is
intended to end debate on the topic. If we are wondering whether all
liquids expand when they freeze, as water does, or whether that is a
special feature of water, and someone claims to know that this is a
special feature of water and that other liquids do not behave in a
similar manner, he is making a claim intended to terminate inquiry in
this matter. Often we welcome relief from uncertainty, but it is worth
asking whether such relief from doubt is philosophically warranted.

Once we note that a Knowledge claim is intended to terminate inquiry,
we may become wary of such claims, for fear of falling prey to
uncritical conviction; in other words, to dogmatism. Knowledge claims
are dogmatic, though we may not notice this, perhaps because we like
to think ourselves enlightened and undogmatic in our own knowledge
claims. But are we? Once we raise fundamental issues, dogma and
knowledge become inextricably intertwined. Our convictions concerning
the source of knowledge, how we know, are dogmatic. At one time it was
dogma that knowledge comes from revelation.. A peison accepting such
dogma might think she knows that someone is possessed by the devil, by
observing alterations in her personality and behavior that constitute
demonic possession. Starting from different assumptions, we might deny
that such people observed demonic possession. Notice how dogmatic our
competing claims are! We begin with a different dogma, crudely put,
that empirical science rather than revelation is the source of
knowledge. Having adopted that dogma, we reject those knowledge claims
based on competing assumptions, those of revelation, for example. So
which dogma is correct? The religious one? The scientific one? To ask
is to enter the debate with the skeptic, who answers with a question,
"Who knows?" Her smile reveals her conclusion? No one knows...

...We suppose that we know of the existence and characteristics of
objects by means of the senses, by perception. Perceptual belief is
the best source of knowledge, or so we dogmatically assume. But do our
perceptual beliefs constitute knowledge?

Philosophical Problems and Arguments: An Introduction
by James W. Cornman, Keith Lehrer, George Sotiros Pappas
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0872201244/

Entire book at Google
http://tinyurl.com/5qf5ym
http://books.google.com/books?printsec=frontcover&id=cRHegYZgyfUC&output=html
Post by TheInquirer
Post by Immortalist
A direct challenge to the sceptic's contention that nothing can be
known with certainty.
not sure if that's my brand of scepticism or skepticism.
Post by Immortalist
Coherence theory: "An empirical belief is realatively true if and only
if it coheres with a system of other beliefs, which together form a
comprehensive account of reality."
i'm not a professional philosopher (obviously), but i have heard of this
one.  i might be using a little of this.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truth-coherence/

vs

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truth-correspondence/
Post by TheInquirer
Post by Immortalist
In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it
would be perverse to withhold provisional assent."
what is "perverse"?  is the scientific community the final judge?  what
if other communities (not necessarily uniformed or unintelligent, but
just happened to have chosen a different career path) disagree?
are there ways to proof against in-breeding?  are there ways to proof
against lack of academic freedom (e.g. pressure from employers, funding
agencies)?
Post by Immortalist
Depends upon the evidential and conceptual ("context") of reasoning.
An inductive argument from evidence to hypothesis is inductively
cogent if and only if the hypothesis is that hypothesis which, of all
the competing hypothesis, has the greatest probability of being true
on the basis of the evidence.
this one ... looks promising.  might be what i am intuitively trying
to do without knowing the technical term for it.
question: how do i assign probability?
[ note: if one reads textbooks on probability written by mathematicians
and statisticians but not those written by scientists and engineers, one
would find that probability and randomness is only defined
axiomatically.  there can be different probability measures. ]
  It can be open ended and go
Post by Immortalist
on forever or it can become circular where each support depending on
the last leads to the same supports over time. This is how scepticism
defeated foundationalism. It seems that all we were left with a hope
for escape from this dilemma of no certain knowledge is a modified
version of the circular argument. Instead of a linear regress of
justifiactions we seek a nonlinear context of groups of evidences or
propositions emerging more evidence than other means of gaining
supports from evidences and propositions. Though we close the circle,
different circlular arguments, corespond to, predict, and manilulate,
events in the world, than other such arguments. If we have a
competition amoungst such partial certainties, we gain at least the
best knowledge we can find.
how about trying to find a synthesis among competing axiom sets?
that too

once again

Mill's Methods

Mill's methods are some methods used to formulate hypotheses of
certain phenomena. It is clearly a species of inductive arguments as
we shall see. More precisely the methods, first proposed by British
philosopher and logician John Stuart Mill, are used to find causes of
the phenomena to be explained. All of Mill's methods share the same
characteristics in that they separate the phenomena into two parts,
namely the parts to be explained, or the effects, and the antecedent
phenomena which include the likely causes of the effects. The method
is conducted by observing the effects and then reason to the likely
causes by observing common features, different features, features that
vary with each other, and so on. According to Mill, there are five of
his methods:

1. Method of Agreement
2. Method of Difference
3. Method of Agreement and Difference (Joint Method)
4. Method of Residue
5. Method of Concomittant Variation

----------------------------------------
1. Method of Agreement
----------------------------------------

Here is what the first method, Method of Agreement, does. First you
have a phenomenon you would like explained, for example a group of
students in a certain school all having diarrhea and vomiting. You
want to know what caused the symptom. You know that the symptom could
only be caused by food. So you list all the food eated by the affected
student up to the time when they were attacked, and suppose this is
the result:

A B C D ==> j h l k
E F A G ==> k o m n
H I J A ==> q r s k

The capital letters on the left hand side represent the antecedent
conditions, and the small letters on the right show the phenomena on
the effects side. Thus, in case of the students having diarrhea, the
left hand side represents the food eated by the students, and the
right hand side show the symptoms that they have. Suppose that each
capital letter represents a kind of food, and the small letters on the
right hand side represent a symptom. Then we can see that the
phenomena on the left hand side have one thing in common, A. And
similarly for the phenomena on the right hand side, the symptom k.
Thus we can conclude, using the First Method, that A is the likely
cause of k.

---------------------------------------
2. Method of Difference
---------------------------------------

Here is the diagram for the second method:

A B C D ==> j k l m
B C D ==> m l j

Suppose we have only two events which are alike in all aspects but
one. Then it is likely that the part that is the difference on the
left had side is the cause of the part that is missing on the right
hand side.

------------------------------------------------
3. Method of Agreement & Difference
- - (Joint Method)
------------------------------------------------

The third method has nothing but a joint consideration of the first
two methods in finding likely causes. Let's look at this diagram

A B C D ==> k l m o
A E F G ==> l p n r
A H I J ==> q u r l

H I M N ==> q r z y
O P Q R ==> x w n r

---------------------------------------------
4. Method of Residue
---------------------------------------------

Here is the diagram for the fourth method:

A B C D ==> o p q r

We know already that
A ==> p
B ==> q
C ==> r

Thus, we can conclude that D is the likely cause of o, because the
pair is the only one left from the matching of causes and effects
which we know already. That is why this method is called the Method of
Residue.

----------------------------------------------
5. Method of Concomittant Variation
----------------------------------------------

Here is the diagram for the last method:

A B C D1 ==> w x y z1
A B C D2 ==> w x y z2
A B C D3 ==> w x y z3
A B C D4 ==> w x y z4
A B C D5 ==> w x y z5

The phenomena are alike except only that there is a variation in the
degree of D on the left hand (causes) side, and the same for z on the
right hand side. Since everything else is equal we conclude that here
D is the likely cause of z.

http://pioneer.netserv.chula.ac.th/~hsoraj/PhilandLogic/WeekFive.html#Mill
http://philosophy.hku.hk/think/sci/mill.php
http://www.thelogician.net/4_logic_of_causation/4_mills_methods.htm
Post by TheInquirer
Post by Immortalist
Quine's Web of Beliefs
but we cannot
Post by Immortalist
rule out the possibility that some observations will require sweeping
changes in the web.
... that leads a few people to a mode of intense questioning?
Post by Immortalist
Thus, these philosophers give certain beliefs a privileged place in
the web. They are protected by something like a one-way glass.
examples?
No. Think of your own. Some beliefs are more important than others and
are harder to change. You snipped out your answer anyway.

Basically, cognitive dissonance is a state of tension that occurs
whenever an individual simualtaniiously holds two cognitions (ideas,
attitudes, beliefs, opinions) that are psychologically inconsistent.
Stated differently, two cognitions are dissonant if, considering these
two cognitions alone, the opposite of one follows from the other.
Because the occurrance of cognitive dissonance is unpleasant, people
are motivated to reduce it; this is roughly analogous to the processes
involved in the induction and reduction of such drives as hunger or
thirst----except that, here, the driving force arises from cognitive
dissonance rather than physiological needs. To hold two ideas that
contradict each other is to flirt with absurdity, and---as Albert
Camus, the existentialist philosopher, has observed---humans are
creatures who sppend their lives trying to convine themselves their
existence is not absurd.

So something is different when you think about Enron and you are at a
point where you must either change you view of Enron or change your
view of what honesty is or reduce each a bit to fit a mutuals non-
arousing response. The cognition; Enron as a representative of
corporate america and the cognition; Enron the book cooker - conflict
so accourding to social psychology one of these cognitions has to be
changed or there might be more "arousal" in the future when these two
cognitions enter you mind simualtainiously.
Post by TheInquirer
Post by Immortalist
Just answer the damn question, not the questioner!  Don't
presume.  My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business.  I ask, you answer.  If you think my questions
are stupid, you have already proven that you are stupid,
not me.  If you don't know the answer, can you please
"pass" to more capable person(s) to answer?
Offensive
so?
If it takes away from your argument what use is it?
Post by TheInquirer
  and detracts from the little persuasiveness
what position am i peddling?
 > You cannot win.
win what?
An adaptation of the borg saying resistence is futile as a challenge


Post by TheInquirer
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.
[ since you have been providing useful leads for my questions,
i take it off, just for you.  OK?]

TheInquirer
2012-12-28 17:20:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Immortalist
It might help to see the difference between deductive certainty vs
inductive probability.
View 1: conclusion;
Deduction = infers particular from general truths
Induction = infers general from particular truths
View 2: conclusion;
Deduction = follows with absolute necessity
Induction = follows with some degree of probability
is probability well-defined (apart from the axioms that
it be satisfied)? can there be different probability measures?
Post by Immortalist
Post by TheInquirer
is there a way to tell if our world is the same as one of the possible
worlds?
We are trapped with using Mills Methods
...
The most notable dissenters have been
Post by Immortalist
Immanuel Kant and, in our times, Saul Kripke. Kant argued that some
statements are necessary, synthetic and a priori; for example, "Every
event has a cause." Ever since, "the problem of the synthetic a
priori" has occupied a fairly central position on the philosophical
stage. Recently, Kripke argued that some statements are necessary,
synthetic, and a posteriori. "Water is H2O," "Heat is mean molecular
energy," and other such theoretical identifications are examples of
such a posteriori necessities.
noted. my qualm is deciding between different sets of synthetic a
priori propositions. why should i presume any one set over another?
Post by Immortalist
My specialty and favorite part of philosophy is Epistemology which
like Ethics or Religion are just three meta philosophy approaches of
the many that deal with multiple arguments sub arguments in their
domains.
which comes first? Ontology or Epistemology?
Post by Immortalist
Post by TheInquirer
Post by Immortalist
Post by TheInquirer
i thought null hypotheses are set up to be rejected, in a
sort of probabilistic "prove by contradiction" manner?
No.
you are not referring to standard statistical procedures, are you?
it is really a test of how well the theory makes any other theory> less likely
Yes if using inductive logic, see above.
how do you "null-proof" a hypothesis with experiments of the
alternatives can be a large number or infinite? e.g. Fermat's Last
Theorem before it was finally proven.
Post by Immortalist
Post by TheInquirer
what is supernatural? isn't it just knowledge / technology that is
currently not known?
It refers to how believable vs far out the theory and its evidence
sosund.
wouldn't this be dependent on different people's judgements?

wouldn't this be a moving target?
Post by Immortalist
For example this Matrix movie like theory sounds unlikely but has not
been shown to be impossible so it is inductive and could be true but
probably not.
not that i believe this theory necessarily, but if it is true, can i
ever tell? can we even design an experiment to test it against many
alternative -isms?

so, what is/are correct way(s) do describe our current state of knowledge:-
"There is no Cosmic Computer out there."
"As far as we can tell, there is no Cosmic Computer out there."
"We live as if there is no Cosmic Computer out there."
"We carry on our lives INDEPENDENTLY of the assumption of a Cosmic
Computer"
other (please specify):_____________________
?
Post by Immortalist
machine is run by some evil being, Dr. Know, who plots to keep us
completely in error through hallucinations. Dr. Know does not wish to
...
Post by Immortalist
We believe that we are not controlled by such a machine, and if we are
fortunate in this belief, then no doubt many of our perceptual beliefs
are true. It is, however, good fortune and not good evidence
precisely what i was trying to get at.

so what is the nature of "evidence" without an ontology?



Once we raise fundamental issues, dogma and
Post by Immortalist
knowledge become inextricably intertwined. Our convictions concerning
the source of knowledge, how we know, are dogmatic.
exactly.
Post by Immortalist
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truth-coherence/
vs
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truth-correspondence/
yes, heard of these.



<snip>
Post by Immortalist
Post by TheInquirer
Post by Immortalist
You cannot win.
win what?
An adaptation of the borg saying resistence is futile as a challenge
what thesis was i espousing?

i quoted the original article for discussion, not because i necessarily
agreed with it.
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.

Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think I am stupid,
you have already proven that you are stupid, not me. If
you don't know the answer, can you please "pass" to other
people to answer? thanks.
M Purcell
2012-12-28 20:07:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheInquirer
so what is the nature of "evidence" without an ontology?
Evidence is what winnows the chaff of ontology from the grain of
knowledge.
TheInquirer
2012-12-28 20:43:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by M Purcell
Post by TheInquirer
so what is the nature of "evidence" without an ontology?
Evidence is what winnows the chaff of ontology from the grain of
knowledge.
is it what the passage is implying?


here's a larger except Immortalist's quote from { Philosophical Problems
and Arguments: An Introduction by James W. Cornman, Keith Lehrer, George
Sotiros Pappas } again
Post by M Purcell
Imagine that all people are controlled by the braino and that the
machine is run by some evil being, Dr. Know, who plots to keep us
completely in error through hallucinations. Dr. Know does not wish to
be detected, so he supplies hallucinations that are coherent,
complete, and systematic. Indeed, the hallucinations he produced in us
are a PERFECT COUNTERFEIT OF REALITY.
Our experiences fulfill our expectations and contain no more surprises
than we would expect from reality. But is it not reality we
experience; our perceptual beliefs about the world are quite mistaken,
for the source of our experiences is a mere machine, the braino, which
creates hallutionations. In such a predicament we might have just the
sort of perceptual beliefs we now have, based on experiences exactly
similar to those we now have. But our perceptual beliefs would be
altogether false.
The imagined situation is exactly similar to ours with respect to the
reasons or evidence we would have for our perceptual beliefs.
Experience is virtually the same in both cases. Consequently, if we
lack knowledge in one situation, we must surely lack it in the other.
Obviously, we lack knowledge when we are controlled by the braino, for
then our perceptual beliefs are false. Hence, we also lack knowledge
in our present situation. More precisely, our perceptual beliefs fail
to constitute knowledge in either case.
We believe that we are not controlled by such a machine, and if we are
fortunate in this belief, then no doubt many of our perceptual beliefs
are true. It is, however, good fortune and not good evidence that we
should thank for correctness of these beliefs.
We are just lucky if there is no Dr. Know controlling us with a
braino; and from that good fortune may result the further good fortune
that most of our perceptual beliefs are true. it is just a matter of
luck, however, and nothing epistemologically more glorious than that.
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.

Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think I am stupid,
you have already proven that you are stupid, not me. If
you don't know the answer, can you please "pass" to other
people to answer? thanks.
sbalneav
2012-12-25 16:58:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheInquirer
Post by Immortalist
In science the null hypothesis or default theory is just a way to
start from scratch and then see what the evidence supports. Its a way
to avoid dogmatic bias.
won't that be out of the frying pan, into the fire?
if the null hypothesis is not rejected, does that mean that
the null hypothesis is true?
No, of course not. But in the absence of anything to indicate otherwise,
that's what you go with.
Post by TheInquirer
worse still, if the null hypothesis is accepted at x% level
of significance, do we know the actual probability that it
is mistaken?
No, we don't. That's the reason why the Null hypothesis can always be
overturned. It's also the reason why it's called a Hypothesis.
Post by TheInquirer
[ Remember: Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. ]
--
__ _ | Misfortune seldom intrudes upon the wise man; his greatest and
(_ |_) | highest interests are directed by reason throughout the course
__)|_) | of life. -- Epicurus, 341-270 BCE
DonH
2012-12-24 19:07:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheInquirer
http://bigi.org.uk/blog/2009/06/29/ontology-epistemology-atheism-agnosticism/
agree or disagree?
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.
Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think my questions
are stupid, you have already proven that you are stupid,
not me. If you don't know the answer, can you please
"pass" to more capable person(s) to answer?
# No Being, without Knowledge?
The average fish in the sea doesn't pause to ponder, but takes evasive
action if a predator (real, or imagined) looms into view.
Even starving humans don't sit and think too much, but look for food.
Only those with some leisure, and some security, indulge.
Of course, there may be a God lurking around, ready to pounce on
atheists.
But prolonged absence of evidence does tend to cause doubt.
TheInquirer
2012-12-25 11:03:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by DonH
The average fish in the sea
how can the fish know if there is water in the sea?

what if some fishes think it's ether,
some fishes think it's alcohol,
some fishes think it's oil,
some fishes think it's mercury,
some fishes think it's coffee,
some fishes think it's tea,
some fishes think it's coca cola,
and some fishes think all these are wrong there are no
liquids unless there is "evidence" for it, and started
theories of hot air filling up their environment, and
whenever other fish question their theories, they are
falsely labeled as ignorant "liquidists"?

how do you think you can help these fishes to get out
of the mess?
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.

Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think my questions
are stupid, you have already proven that you are stupid,
not me. If you don't know the answer, can you please
"pass" to more capable person(s) to answer?
DonH
2012-12-26 17:32:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheInquirer
Post by DonH
The average fish in the sea
how can the fish know if there is water in the sea?
what if some fishes think it's ether,
some fishes think it's alcohol,
some fishes think it's oil,
some fishes think it's mercury,
some fishes think it's coffee,
some fishes think it's tea,
some fishes think it's coca cola,
and some fishes think all these are wrong there are no
liquids unless there is "evidence" for it, and started
theories of hot air filling up their environment, and
whenever other fish question their theories, they are
falsely labeled as ignorant "liquidists"?
how do you think you can help these fishes to get out
of the mess?
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.
Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think my questions
are stupid, you have already proven that you are stupid,
not me. If you don't know the answer, can you please
"pass" to more capable person(s) to answer?
# We humans are trapped in the tautological environment of our five senses.
There may be parallel universes, but we have no knowledge of them.
The fish accept their own habitat - except those who ventured onto land,
and became amphibians, then reptiles, birds, and mammals.
We land-humans carry with us the relics of our marine origin: our eyes
need to blink and have eyelids, to let us keep seeing. Our lungs need
moisture; our bodies need a rigid skeleton to support our weight. Our blood
has the same saline content of earlier oceans.
But our too-large brain tends to think too much, and search for the
meaning of meaning, when it is not dogmatically stuck in sacred texts.
Only the empirical tests of the Scientific Method keep us relatively
sane.
But we are breeding ourselves to extinction. The population boom will
collapse.
The Rise, and Fall, of the Mad Ape, will be spectacular, but brief.
Planet Earth will go on - without us.
TheInquirer
2012-12-26 18:56:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by DonH
Only the empirical tests of the Scientific Method keep us relatively
sane.
is it possible to have just the methodological naturalism without the
philosophical naturalism?
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.

Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think I am stupid,
you have already proven that you are stupid, not me. If
you don't know the answer, can you please "pass" to other
people to answer? thanks.
sbalneav
2012-12-27 00:56:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheInquirer
Post by DonH
Only the empirical tests of the Scientific Method keep us relatively
sane.
is it possible to have just the methodological naturalism without the
philosophical naturalism?
Yeah, that's called science. Science makes no claim that the natural *is* all
that there is, it says that we see no evidence for the supernatural, so we will
restrict ourselves to talking about the natural.

Many scientists may BE philosophical naturalists, and may even write entire
BOOKS expousing on their philosophical naturalism. However, they're not part
of "science", but rather, fall under the realm of "opinion and/or entertainment
and/or philosophy". No peer reviewed scientific paper, published in an acredited
scientific journal will claim philosophical naturalism to be true.
--
__ _ | Book lovers never go to bed alone.
(_ |_) | -- Unknown
__)|_) |
TheInquirer
2012-12-27 04:31:17 UTC
Permalink
it says that we see no evidence for the supernatural,


what is supernatural?

Arthur C. Clarke: "any sufficiently advanced technology is
indistinguishable from magic,"

agree or disagree? [just asking]
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.

Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think I am stupid,
you have already proven that you are stupid, not me. If
you don't know the answer, can you please "pass" to other
people to answer? thanks.
sbalneav
2012-12-27 14:01:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by sbalneav
it says that we see no evidence for the supernatural,
what is supernatural?
Ask a theist. They seem to have a good idea.
Post by sbalneav
Arthur C. Clarke: "any sufficiently advanced technology is
indistinguishable from magic,"
agree or disagree? [just asking]
It's one of my .sig quotes. As a soundbite, it's pithy and funny. As a
scientific principle? No, I disagree.
--
__ _ | The dissemination of knowledge is one of the
(_ |_) | cornerstones of civilization.
__)|_) | -- John F. Budd
TheInquirer
2012-12-27 15:21:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by sbalneav
Post by sbalneav
it says that we see no evidence for the supernatural,
what is supernatural?
Ask a theist. They seem to have a good idea.
if one uses the same terms as them, will you have fallen into the same
trap?
Post by sbalneav
Post by sbalneav
Arthur C. Clarke: "any sufficiently advanced technology is
indistinguishable from magic,"
agree or disagree? [just asking]
It's one of my .sig quotes. As a soundbite, it's pithy and funny. As a
scientific principle? No, I disagree.
why?
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.

Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think I am stupid,
you have already proven that you are stupid, not me. If
you don't know the answer, can you please "pass" to other
people to answer? thanks.
sbalneav
2012-12-27 19:15:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by sbalneav
it says that we see no evidence for the supernatural,
what is supernatural?
Ask a theist. They seem to have a good idea.
if one uses the same terms as them, will you have fallen into the same
trap?
No, why would I? I evaluate their claim. If it does not have any evidence
supporting it, I have no reason to accept their claim as true.
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by sbalneav
Arthur C. Clarke: "any sufficiently advanced technology is
indistinguishable from magic,"
agree or disagree? [just asking]
It's one of my .sig quotes. As a soundbite, it's pithy and funny. As a
scientific principle? No, I disagree.
why?
Because there's no evidence that magic exists.
--
__ _ | Nature uses as little as possible of anything.
(_ |_) | -- Johannes Keppler
__)|_) |
DonH
2012-12-26 17:32:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheInquirer
Post by DonH
The average fish in the sea
how can the fish know if there is water in the sea?
what if some fishes think it's ether,
some fishes think it's alcohol,
some fishes think it's oil,
some fishes think it's mercury,
some fishes think it's coffee,
some fishes think it's tea,
some fishes think it's coca cola,
and some fishes think all these are wrong there are no
liquids unless there is "evidence" for it, and started
theories of hot air filling up their environment, and
whenever other fish question their theories, they are
falsely labeled as ignorant "liquidists"?
how do you think you can help these fishes to get out
of the mess?
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.
Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think my questions
are stupid, you have already proven that you are stupid,
not me. If you don't know the answer, can you please
"pass" to more capable person(s) to answer?
# We humans are trapped in the tautological environment of our five senses.
There may be parallel universes, but we have no knowledge of them.
The fish accept their own habitat - except those who ventured onto land,
and became amphibians, then reptiles, birds, and mammals.
We land-humans carry with us the relics of our marine origin: our eyes
need to blink and have eyelids, to let us keep seeing. Our lungs need
moisture; our bodies need a rigid skeleton to support our weight. Our blood
has the same saline content of earlier oceans.
But our too-large brain tends to think too much, and search for the
meaning of meaning, when it is not dogmatically stuck in sacred texts.
Only the empirical tests of the Scientific Method keep us relatively
sane.
But we are breeding ourselves to extinction. The population boom will
collapse.
The Rise, and Fall, of the Mad Ape, will be spectacular, but brief.
Planet Earth will go on - without us.
sbalneav
2012-12-25 17:18:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheInquirer
http://bigi.org.uk/blog/2009/06/29/ontology-epistemology-atheism-agnosticism/
agree or disagree?
Disagree. The artcle is basically a very long-winded way of saying "Just
because we see no evidence FOR a God, doesn't mean that the default position of
"a God doesn't exist" is necessarily correct. The author has taken several
hundred words to basically re-hash the idea of gnosis.

Most of us here are AGNOSTIC atheists, that is to say, we don't claim absolute
knowledge that a God or Gods do not exist, but based on the lack of evidence we
do not believe in a God or Gods.

Oh, and I have some issues with your .sig, as well.
Post by TheInquirer
I ask, becos I'm curious.
Fair enough.
Post by TheInquirer
Just answer the damn question, not the questioner!
OK so far, you're not wanting to deal with Ad Hominem arguments.
Post by TheInquirer
Don't
presume.
Don't presume *what*, exactly?
Post by TheInquirer
My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business.
That may be true, but if you're posting in a public forum, sooner or later
you're going to have to take a stance on things, in which case you *will* have
to support your personal beliefs. Unless you're the type who does nothing but
ask questions, in which case most people will stop responding to you fairly
quickly, since one expects adults to not act like the ever-questioning 5 year
old child.
Post by TheInquirer
I ask, you answer.
No. We're not OBLIGATED TO ANSWER. Your statement here shows a fairly
profound misunderstanding of personal dynamics. Remember, you're asking
because you're curious. Grown men and women who are equals generally have a
conversation in which things flow back-and-forth. Edicts such as "I ask, you
answer" hint at a person with an unwarrented sense of self-importance.
Post by TheInquirer
If you think my questions
are stupid, you have already proven that you are stupid,
not me.
This, of course, is utterly incorrect. We tell children that there are no
stupid questions, because they're still learning. Obviously, for an adult,
there ARE stupid questions. Especially if it's a repeated question when the
answer has already been given, or is trivially obtained through other means.

Also, again, we see the self-importance hints here. Just because I think your
QUESTION is stupid, doesn't mean that I think YOU are stupid. You might have
just asked a question without thinking, at which point I note: that's kind of a
dumb question, did you think before asking? But *you* are stating that because
I've pointed out your unintelligent question, that that makes *me* stupid.

In other words, because I dispute your *question*, which is part of the
conversation, you're making a judgement *on me personally*. Now, at the very
beginning, you implied that you didn't want to deal with ad-hominems, however,
here you're guilty of the very thing you seem to dislike.
Post by TheInquirer
If you don't know the answer, can you please
"pass" to more capable person(s) to answer?
Again, the self importance. Because I question the intelligence of your
question, I'm less "capable".

Your .sig is ill-conceived. I'd recommend fixing it.
--
__ _ | Nullius in verba ("Take nobody's word for it")
(_ |_) | -- Motto of the Royal Society
__)|_) |
TheInquirer
2012-12-25 17:42:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
http://bigi.org.uk/blog/2009/06/29/ontology-epistemology-atheism-agnosticism/
agree or disagree?
Disagree. The artcle is basically a very long-winded way of saying "Just
because we see no evidence FOR a God, doesn't mean that the default position of
"a God doesn't exist" is necessarily correct. The author has taken several
hundred words to basically re-hash the idea of gnosis.
Most of us here are AGNOSTIC atheists, that is to say, we don't claim absolute
knowledge that a God or Gods do not exist, but based on the lack of evidence we
do not believe in a God or Gods.
the problem is: there is no universal agreement to the term "God" /
"Gods". how do we ever begin?
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
Don't
presume.
Don't presume *what*, exactly?
Don't presume. period.


case you *will* have
Post by sbalneav
to support your personal beliefs.
what if i am so confused by so many different people's opinions, that i
want to reevaluate everything anew?
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
I ask, you answer.
No. We're not OBLIGATED TO ANSWER.
see next sentence of sig.


Your statement here shows a fairly
Post by sbalneav
profound misunderstanding of personal dynamics. Remember, you're asking
because you're curious. Grown men and women who are equals generally have a
conversation in which things flow back-and-forth. Edicts such as "I ask, you
answer" hint at a person with an unwarrented sense of self-importance.
it's not meant for you, but for other netters with unwarrented sense of
self-importance.


We tell children that there are no
Post by sbalneav
stupid questions, because they're still learning. Obviously, for an adult,
there ARE stupid questions.
Especially if it's a repeated question when the
Post by sbalneav
answer has already been given,
does the fact that answer has already been given mean that it is correct?


or is trivially obtained through other means.

yes, i can read books, search google and you tube. in fact i learn a
lot from these. but these are dead.
Post by sbalneav
Also, again, we see the self-importance hints here.
it's not meant for you, but for other netters with unwarrented sense of
self-importance.

Just because I think your
Post by sbalneav
QUESTION is stupid, doesn't mean that I think YOU are stupid. You might have
just asked a question without thinking, at which point I note: that's kind of a
dumb question, did you think before asking? But *you* are stating that because
I've pointed out your unintelligent question, that that makes *me* stupid.
In other words, because I dispute your *question*, which is part of the
conversation, you're making a judgement *on me personally*. Now, at the very
beginning, you implied that you didn't want to deal with ad-hominems, however,
here you're guilty of the very thing you seem to dislike.
sorry, oversight.
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
If you don't know the answer, can you please
"pass" to more capable person(s) to answer?
Again, the self importance.
it's not meant for you, but for other netters with unwarrented sense of
self-importance.


Because I question the intelligence of your
Post by sbalneav
question, I'm less "capable".
Your .sig is ill-conceived. I'd recommend fixing it.
fixed!

:-)
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.

Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think I am stupid,
you have already proven that you are stupid, not me. If
you don't know the answer, can you please "pass" to other
people to answer? thanks.
sbalneav
2012-12-25 17:57:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
http://bigi.org.uk/blog/2009/06/29/ontology-epistemology-atheism-agnosticism/
agree or disagree?
Disagree. The artcle is basically a very long-winded way of saying "Just
because we see no evidence FOR a God, doesn't mean that the default position of
"a God doesn't exist" is necessarily correct. The author has taken several
hundred words to basically re-hash the idea of gnosis.
Most of us here are AGNOSTIC atheists, that is to say, we don't claim absolute
knowledge that a God or Gods do not exist, but based on the lack of evidence we
do not believe in a God or Gods.
the problem is: there is no universal agreement to the term "God" /
"Gods". how do we ever begin?
By asking the person for their definition of "God". Until they provide one,
you really don't have much to argue over.
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
Don't
presume.
Don't presume *what*, exactly?
Don't presume. period.
We all presume. I presume I'm talking to a human. Do I presume incorrectly?
Post by TheInquirer
case you *will* have
Post by sbalneav
to support your personal beliefs.
what if i am so confused by so many different people's opinions, that i
want to reevaluate everything anew?
I'm under no obligation to help you "find yourself". Do that on your own time,
please.
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
I ask, you answer.
No. We're not OBLIGATED TO ANSWER.
see next sentence of sig.
Failure to address point noted.
Post by TheInquirer
Your statement here shows a fairly
Post by sbalneav
profound misunderstanding of personal dynamics. Remember, you're asking
because you're curious. Grown men and women who are equals generally have a
conversation in which things flow back-and-forth. Edicts such as "I ask, you
answer" hint at a person with an unwarrented sense of self-importance.
it's not meant for you,
How do you know I don't have an unwarrented sense of self-importance? :)
Post by TheInquirer
but for other netters with unwarrented sense of
self-importance.
Nevertheless, to state this in your .sig makes you come off as stand-offish.
Post by TheInquirer
We tell children that there are no
Post by sbalneav
stupid questions, because they're still learning. Obviously, for an adult,
there ARE stupid questions.
Especially if it's a repeated question when the
Post by sbalneav
answer has already been given,
does the fact that answer has already been given mean that it is correct?
No. But then it's incumbent upon you to point out that you think that the
answer is incorrect, and give your reasons why. Simply re-asking the question
does not further the conversation. Furthermore, if the answer IS correct, it's
a stupid question.

Q: "Why is the sky blue?"
A: <Answer involving diffraction of light in an atmosphere>
Q: "But *why* is the sky blue?"

This is endearing in a 5 year old. Not endearing in a 55 year old.
Post by TheInquirer
or is trivially obtained through other means.
yes, i can read books, search google and you tube. in fact i learn a
lot from these. but these are dead.
What do you mean, "dead"?

<snip>
--
__ _ | He that breaks a thing to find out what it is
(_ |_) | has left the path of wisdom.
__)|_) | -- J.R.R. Tolkien
TheInquirer
2012-12-26 15:44:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by sbalneav
By asking the person for their definition of "God". Until they provide one,
you really don't have much to argue over.
i don't have a position to defend. i just want to know the truth.
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
Don't presume. period.
We all presume.
how you know? http://bit.ly/UtcYVu


I presume I'm talking to a human. Do I presume incorrectly?
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
case you *will* have
Post by sbalneav
to support your personal beliefs.
what if i am so confused by so many different people's opinions, that i
want to reevaluate everything anew?
I'm under no obligation to help you "find yourself".
did i say you have such an obligation?
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
I ask, you answer.
No. We're not OBLIGATED TO ANSWER.
see next sentence of sig.
Failure to address point noted.


failure to comprehend my message in its entirety noted.
Post by sbalneav
How do you know I don't have an unwarrented sense of self-importance? :)
OK, it's not originally meant for you, OK?
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
but for other netters with unwarrented sense of
self-importance.
Nevertheless, to state this in your .sig makes you come off as stand-offish.
so what? it's a good filter, isn't it?
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
does the fact that answer has already been given mean that it is correct?
No. But then it's incumbent
really?

upon you to point out that you think that the
Post by sbalneav
answer is incorrect, and give your reasons why.
what if i am still suspending my judgement, and asking more questions to
help the other party clarify his point?



Simply re-asking the question
<snip>
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
yes, i can read books, search google and you tube. in fact i learn a
lot from these. but these are dead.
What do you mean, "dead"?
if i have further questions on a e.g. book (especially the traditional
paper ones), can i type something and ask?
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.

Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think I am stupid,
you have already proven that you are stupid, not me. If
you don't know the answer, can you please "pass" to other
people to answer? thanks.
sbalneav
2012-12-26 16:48:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
By asking the person for their definition of "God". Until they provide one,
you really don't have much to argue over.
i don't have a position to defend. i just want to know the truth.
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
Don't presume. period.
We all presume.
how you know? http://bit.ly/UtcYVu
I don't claim absolute knowledge.

And seriously? The Matrix? If I post a video on friggin' Star Wars do I get
to assert faster-than-light travel of macro-sized objects exists because...
Star Wars!

If you've got so little intellectual firepower backing you up that you think
you're making debating points by posting clips from Science Fiction movies,
well, might I suggest you lay off the whacky-tabaccy and deal with reality?
Post by TheInquirer
I presume I'm talking to a human. Do I presume incorrectly?
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
case you *will* have
Post by sbalneav
to support your personal beliefs.
what if i am so confused by so many different people's opinions, that i
want to reevaluate everything anew?
I'm under no obligation to help you "find yourself".
did i say you have such an obligation?
'What if' was asked. I simply stated my opinion.
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
I ask, you answer.
No. We're not OBLIGATED TO ANSWER.
see next sentence of sig.
Failure to address point noted.
failure to comprehend my message in its entirety noted.
I'm waiting patiently for the point to all of this to be revealed. I suspect
I'm Vladimir and Estragon to your Godot.
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
How do you know I don't have an unwarrented sense of self-importance? :)
OK, it's not originally meant for you, OK?
How am I to know that, when your .sig goes on the end of every message?
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
but for other netters with unwarrented sense of
self-importance.
Nevertheless, to state this in your .sig makes you come off as stand-offish.
so what? it's a good filter, isn't it?
No, it isn't.
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
does the fact that answer has already been given mean that it is correct?
No. But then it's incumbent
really?
Discourse between adults generally has some both written and unwritten rules.
When dealing with Dialectic, if you have an issue with a statement someone
makes, and feel it's incorrect, one should generally point it out, to further
the discussion. Unless furthering discussion isn't your goal.
Post by TheInquirer
upon you to point out that you think that the
Post by sbalneav
answer is incorrect, and give your reasons why.
what if i am still suspending my judgement, and asking more questions to
help the other party clarify his point?
We weren't talking about MORE questions, we were talking about asking the same
question over. And if you don't understand, it's usually the polite thing to
say, "I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by X, could you elaborate
further?". Again, in the interests of furthering the discussion.
Post by TheInquirer
Simply re-asking the question
<snip>
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
yes, i can read books, search google and you tube. in fact i learn a
lot from these. but these are dead.
What do you mean, "dead"?
if i have further questions on a e.g. book (especially the traditional
paper ones), can i type something and ask?
In a sense, yes. You turn to the back of the book, and look for the "Index"
and "References" section.
--
__ _ | An honest tale speeds best being plainly told.
(_ |_) | -- William Shakespeare, "Henry VI"
__)|_) |
TheInquirer
2012-12-26 17:06:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
how you know? http://bit.ly/UtcYVu
I don't claim absolute knowledge.
And seriously? The Matrix? If I post a video on friggin' Star Wars do I get
to assert faster-than-light travel of macro-sized objects exists because...
Star Wars!
If you've got so little intellectual firepower backing you up
that's your presumption. thanks for showing your hand.


that you think
Post by sbalneav
you're making debating points by posting clips from Science Fiction movies,
well, might I suggest you lay off the whacky-tabaccy and deal with reality?
what is reality?
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
I presume I'm talking to a human. Do I presume incorrectly?
Post by sbalneav
Post by sbalneav
case you *will* have
Post by sbalneav
to support your personal beliefs.
what if i am so confused by so many different people's opinions, that i
want to reevaluate everything anew?
I'm under no obligation to help you "find yourself".
did i say you have such an obligation?
'What if' was asked. I simply stated my opinion.
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by sbalneav
Post by sbalneav
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
I ask, you answer.
No. We're not OBLIGATED TO ANSWER.
see next sentence of sig.
Failure to address point noted.
failure to comprehend my message in its entirety noted.
I'm waiting patiently for the point to all of this to be revealed. I suspect
I'm Vladimir and Estragon to your Godot.
why don't you wait even longer?
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
How do you know I don't have an unwarrented sense of self-importance? :)
OK, it's not originally meant for you, OK?
How am I to know that, when your .sig goes on the end of every message?
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by sbalneav
but for other netters with unwarrented sense of
self-importance.
Nevertheless, to state this in your .sig makes you come off as stand-offish.
so what? it's a good filter, isn't it?
No, it isn't.
yes it is. you're already on my grey list. and i won't mind at all if
you put me on your kill file.
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by sbalneav
does the fact that answer has already been given mean that it is correct?
No. But then it's incumbent
really?
Discourse between adults generally has some both written and unwritten rules.
When dealing with Dialectic, if you have an issue with a statement someone
makes, and feel it's incorrect, one should generally point it out, to further
the discussion. Unless furthering discussion isn't your goal.
my goal is to re-evaluate my own belief systems by sifting through many
alternatives as possible.

furthering discussion ... it depends ...
Post by sbalneav
We weren't talking about MORE questions, we were talking about asking the same
question over.
same questions?
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
if i have further questions on a e.g. book (especially the traditional
paper ones), can i type something and ask?
In a sense, yes. You turn to the back of the book, and look for the "Index"
and "References" section.
will this uncover hidden assumptions of the author?
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.

Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think I am stupid,
you have already proven that you are stupid, not me. If
you don't know the answer, can you please "pass" to other
people to answer? thanks.
sbalneav
2012-12-26 17:28:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
how you know? http://bit.ly/UtcYVu
I don't claim absolute knowledge.
And seriously? The Matrix? If I post a video on friggin' Star Wars do I get
to assert faster-than-light travel of macro-sized objects exists because...
Star Wars!
If you've got so little intellectual firepower backing you up
that's your presumption. thanks for showing your hand.
I'm the one trying to have a serious discussion, and you're the one posting
Matrix videos.
Post by TheInquirer
that you think
Post by sbalneav
you're making debating points by posting clips from Science Fiction movies,
well, might I suggest you lay off the whacky-tabaccy and deal with reality?
what is reality?
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.
-- Philip K. Dick
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
I presume I'm talking to a human. Do I presume incorrectly?
Post by sbalneav
Post by sbalneav
case you *will* have
Post by sbalneav
to support your personal beliefs.
what if i am so confused by so many different people's opinions, that i
want to reevaluate everything anew?
I'm under no obligation to help you "find yourself".
did i say you have such an obligation?
'What if' was asked. I simply stated my opinion.
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by sbalneav
Post by sbalneav
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
I ask, you answer.
No. We're not OBLIGATED TO ANSWER.
see next sentence of sig.
Failure to address point noted.
failure to comprehend my message in its entirety noted.
I'm waiting patiently for the point to all of this to be revealed. I suspect
I'm Vladimir and Estragon to your Godot.
why don't you wait even longer?
Unlike Vladimir and Estragon, I will eventually move on if you can't get to the
point.
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
How do you know I don't have an unwarrented sense of self-importance? :)
OK, it's not originally meant for you, OK?
How am I to know that, when your .sig goes on the end of every message?
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by sbalneav
but for other netters with unwarrented sense of
self-importance.
Nevertheless, to state this in your .sig makes you come off as stand-offish.
so what? it's a good filter, isn't it?
No, it isn't.
yes it is. you're already on my grey list. and i won't mind at all if
you put me on your kill file.
I don't particularily care what list you've assigned me to. Your lists, as
your sig states, are your business.
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by sbalneav
does the fact that answer has already been given mean that it is correct?
No. But then it's incumbent
really?
Discourse between adults generally has some both written and unwritten rules.
When dealing with Dialectic, if you have an issue with a statement someone
makes, and feel it's incorrect, one should generally point it out, to further
the discussion. Unless furthering discussion isn't your goal.
my goal is to re-evaluate my own belief systems by sifting through many
alternatives as possible.
furthering discussion ... it depends ...
Post by sbalneav
We weren't talking about MORE questions, we were talking about asking the same
question over.
same questions?
Yes. Read back in the thread.
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
if i have further questions on a e.g. book (especially the traditional
paper ones), can i type something and ask?
In a sense, yes. You turn to the back of the book, and look for the "Index"
and "References" section.
will this uncover hidden assumptions of the author?
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Depends on both how good the book is, how good
the References and Index section is, and on your own intellectual rigor.

Reading is a tool you use to gain knowledge. It isn't the only tool, but it's
an important one. It's the difference between coming to a discussion and
quoting some Hume, or Epicurus, or Plato, or Smith, or pointing to woo based on
a science fiction film.
--
__ _ | To poke a wood fire is more solid enjoyment than almost
(_ |_) | anything else in the world.
__)|_) | -- Charles Dudley Warner
TheInquirer
2012-12-26 19:05:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by sbalneav
I'm the one trying to have a serious discussion, and you're the one posting
Matrix videos.
and the Matrix video has nothing to provoke serious thought?
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.

Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think I am stupid,
you have already proven that you are stupid, not me. If
you don't know the answer, can you please "pass" to other
people to answer? thanks.
sbalneav
2012-12-27 00:49:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
I'm the one trying to have a serious discussion, and you're the one posting
Matrix videos.
and the Matrix video has nothing to provoke serious thought?
Nope.
--
__ _ | When one burns one's bridges,
(_ |_) | what a very nice fire it makes.
__)|_) | -- Dylan Thomas
TheInquirer
2012-12-27 04:32:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
I'm the one trying to have a serious discussion, and you're the one posting
Matrix videos.
and the Matrix video has nothing to provoke serious thought?
Nope.
Don't presume. OK?
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.

Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think I am stupid,
you have already proven that you are stupid, not me. If
you don't know the answer, can you please "pass" to other
people to answer? thanks.
sbalneav
2012-12-27 14:01:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheInquirer
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
I'm the one trying to have a serious discussion, and you're the one posting
Matrix videos.
and the Matrix video has nothing to provoke serious thought?
Nope.
Don't presume. OK?
I'm not. It provokes no serious thought in me.
--
__ _ | What the scientists have in their briefcases
(_ |_) | is terrifying.
__)|_) | -- Nikita Khrushchev
TheInquirer
2012-12-27 15:23:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
I'm the one trying to have a serious discussion, and you're the one posting
Matrix videos.
and the Matrix video has nothing to provoke serious thought?
Nope.
Don't presume. OK?
I'm not. It provokes no serious thought in me.
"Don't presume" is a command. it's not negotiable.
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.

Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think I am stupid,
you have already proven that you are stupid, not me. If
you don't know the answer, can you please "pass" to other
people to answer? thanks.
sbalneav
2012-12-27 19:27:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
I'm the one trying to have a serious discussion, and you're the one posting
Matrix videos.
and the Matrix video has nothing to provoke serious thought?
Nope.
Don't presume. OK?
I'm not. It provokes no serious thought in me.
"Don't presume" is a command. it's not negotiable.
Word of advice: adults in a discussion don't command each other. I've stated
my position. That should be enough for you. That you don't accept it ain't my
problem, mister.
--
__ _ | It is the nature of the wise to resist pleasures,
(_ |_) | but the foolish to be a slave to them.
__)|_) | -- Epictetus
TheInquirer
2012-12-26 19:05:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by sbalneav
I'm the one trying to have a serious discussion, and you're the one posting
Matrix videos.
and the Matrix video has nothing to provoke serious thought?
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.

Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think I am stupid,
you have already proven that you are stupid, not me. If
you don't know the answer, can you please "pass" to other
people to answer? thanks.
sbalneav
2012-12-26 17:28:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
how you know? http://bit.ly/UtcYVu
I don't claim absolute knowledge.
And seriously? The Matrix? If I post a video on friggin' Star Wars do I get
to assert faster-than-light travel of macro-sized objects exists because...
Star Wars!
If you've got so little intellectual firepower backing you up
that's your presumption. thanks for showing your hand.
I'm the one trying to have a serious discussion, and you're the one posting
Matrix videos.
Post by TheInquirer
that you think
Post by sbalneav
you're making debating points by posting clips from Science Fiction movies,
well, might I suggest you lay off the whacky-tabaccy and deal with reality?
what is reality?
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.
-- Philip K. Dick
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
I presume I'm talking to a human. Do I presume incorrectly?
Post by sbalneav
Post by sbalneav
case you *will* have
Post by sbalneav
to support your personal beliefs.
what if i am so confused by so many different people's opinions, that i
want to reevaluate everything anew?
I'm under no obligation to help you "find yourself".
did i say you have such an obligation?
'What if' was asked. I simply stated my opinion.
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by sbalneav
Post by sbalneav
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
I ask, you answer.
No. We're not OBLIGATED TO ANSWER.
see next sentence of sig.
Failure to address point noted.
failure to comprehend my message in its entirety noted.
I'm waiting patiently for the point to all of this to be revealed. I suspect
I'm Vladimir and Estragon to your Godot.
why don't you wait even longer?
Unlike Vladimir and Estragon, I will eventually move on if you can't get to the
point.
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
How do you know I don't have an unwarrented sense of self-importance? :)
OK, it's not originally meant for you, OK?
How am I to know that, when your .sig goes on the end of every message?
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by sbalneav
but for other netters with unwarrented sense of
self-importance.
Nevertheless, to state this in your .sig makes you come off as stand-offish.
so what? it's a good filter, isn't it?
No, it isn't.
yes it is. you're already on my grey list. and i won't mind at all if
you put me on your kill file.
I don't particularily care what list you've assigned me to. Your lists, as
your sig states, are your business.
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by sbalneav
does the fact that answer has already been given mean that it is correct?
No. But then it's incumbent
really?
Discourse between adults generally has some both written and unwritten rules.
When dealing with Dialectic, if you have an issue with a statement someone
makes, and feel it's incorrect, one should generally point it out, to further
the discussion. Unless furthering discussion isn't your goal.
my goal is to re-evaluate my own belief systems by sifting through many
alternatives as possible.
furthering discussion ... it depends ...
Post by sbalneav
We weren't talking about MORE questions, we were talking about asking the same
question over.
same questions?
Yes. Read back in the thread.
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
if i have further questions on a e.g. book (especially the traditional
paper ones), can i type something and ask?
In a sense, yes. You turn to the back of the book, and look for the "Index"
and "References" section.
will this uncover hidden assumptions of the author?
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Depends on both how good the book is, how good
the References and Index section is, and on your own intellectual rigor.

Reading is a tool you use to gain knowledge. It isn't the only tool, but it's
an important one. It's the difference between coming to a discussion and
quoting some Hume, or Epicurus, or Plato, or Smith, or pointing to woo based on
a science fiction film.
--
__ _ | To poke a wood fire is more solid enjoyment than almost
(_ |_) | anything else in the world.
__)|_) | -- Charles Dudley Warner
TheInquirer
2012-12-26 15:44:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by sbalneav
By asking the person for their definition of "God". Until they provide one,
you really don't have much to argue over.
i don't have a position to defend. i just want to know the truth.
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
Don't presume. period.
We all presume.
how you know? http://bit.ly/UtcYVu


I presume I'm talking to a human. Do I presume incorrectly?
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
case you *will* have
Post by sbalneav
to support your personal beliefs.
what if i am so confused by so many different people's opinions, that i
want to reevaluate everything anew?
I'm under no obligation to help you "find yourself".
did i say you have such an obligation?
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
I ask, you answer.
No. We're not OBLIGATED TO ANSWER.
see next sentence of sig.
Failure to address point noted.


failure to comprehend my message in its entirety noted.
Post by sbalneav
How do you know I don't have an unwarrented sense of self-importance? :)
OK, it's not originally meant for you, OK?
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
but for other netters with unwarrented sense of
self-importance.
Nevertheless, to state this in your .sig makes you come off as stand-offish.
so what? it's a good filter, isn't it?
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
does the fact that answer has already been given mean that it is correct?
No. But then it's incumbent
really?

upon you to point out that you think that the
Post by sbalneav
answer is incorrect, and give your reasons why.
what if i am still suspending my judgement, and asking more questions to
help the other party clarify his point?



Simply re-asking the question
<snip>
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
yes, i can read books, search google and you tube. in fact i learn a
lot from these. but these are dead.
What do you mean, "dead"?
if i have further questions on a e.g. book (especially the traditional
paper ones), can i type something and ask?
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.

Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think I am stupid,
you have already proven that you are stupid, not me. If
you don't know the answer, can you please "pass" to other
people to answer? thanks.
sbalneav
2012-12-25 18:05:17 UTC
Permalink
In alt.atheism TheInquirer <***@ask.questions> wrote:

You noted you fixed it, and it is better. But how about this, which I think
conveys the spirit of what you're trying to say in a way that doesn't, IMHO,
provoke?


I ask, becos I'm curious.

Just answer the question, not the questioner! Don't
presume because I argue a particular position, that I
necessarily believe it. Don't fall prey to the ad-hominem
fallacy. If you don't know the answer, can you please
"pass" to other people to answer? thanks.


I think that's what you're trying to convey, yes?
--
__ _ | When I look upon men of science and philosophers, man is
(_ |_) | the wisest of all beings; when I look upon priests and
__)|_) | prophets nothing is as contemptible as man. -- Diogenes
TheInquirer
2012-12-26 15:52:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by sbalneav
You noted you fixed it, and it is better. But how about this, which I think
conveys the spirit of what you're trying to say in a way that doesn't, IMHO,
provoke?
I ask, becos I'm curious.
Just answer the question, not the questioner! Don't
presume because I argue a particular position, that I
necessarily believe it. Don't fall prey to the ad-hominem
fallacy. If you don't know the answer, can you please
"pass" to other people to answer? thanks.
I think that's what you're trying to convey, yes?
theoretically, yes. thanks for taking the time, but ...

if you're the sort of person who bothers to spend time thinking
through these things, then my "provocative" sig was probably
not meant for you. but if you're so offended by the sig as
it now stands, so much so that i end up on your kill file, i
won't mind. might as well. i don't think i'll miss much.
AFAIK, my newsreader does not have a killfile, but i do mentally
have whitelists and blacklists.
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.

Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think I am stupid,
you have already proven that you are stupid, not me. If
you don't know the answer, can you please "pass" to other
people to answer? thanks.
sbalneav
2012-12-26 16:55:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
You noted you fixed it, and it is better. But how about this, which I think
conveys the spirit of what you're trying to say in a way that doesn't, IMHO,
provoke?
I ask, becos I'm curious.
Just answer the question, not the questioner! Don't
presume because I argue a particular position, that I
necessarily believe it. Don't fall prey to the ad-hominem
fallacy. If you don't know the answer, can you please
"pass" to other people to answer? thanks.
I think that's what you're trying to convey, yes?
theoretically, yes. thanks for taking the time, but ...
if you're the sort of person who bothers to spend time thinking
through these things, then my "provocative" sig was probably
not meant for you.
The problem, of course, is the kind of person who DOES do some thinking will,
sometimes, look at your sig, think "Moron", and move on. You'll lose out on a
potentially enlightening discussion.
Post by TheInquirer
but if you're so offended by the sig as
it now stands,
I'm not offended, I'm offering constructive criticism. You may take it or
leave it as such.
Post by TheInquirer
so much so that i end up on your kill file, i
won't mind. might as well. i don't think i'll miss much.
Ahhh, there's that unwarrented self-importance again. I try to be helpful, and
you make a backhanded slur against me.
--
__ _ | Take eight minutes and divide by 90 million lonely miles,
(_ |_) | and watch a shadow cross the floor.
__)|_) | We don't live here anymore. -- The Weakerthans
TheInquirer
2012-12-26 17:16:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by sbalneav
The problem, of course, is the kind of person who DOES do some thinking will,
sometimes, look at your sig, think "Moron",
the joke is on him.

and move on.

might as well!


You'll lose out on a
Post by sbalneav
potentially enlightening discussion.
thanks, but no thanks.
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
but if you're so offended by the sig as
it now stands,
I'm not offended, I'm offering constructive criticism.
from you? thanks, but no thanks.


You may take it or
Post by sbalneav
leave it as such.
Post by TheInquirer
so much so that i end up on your kill file, i
won't mind. might as well. i don't think i'll miss much.
Ahhh, there's that unwarrented self-importance
again. I try to be helpful,
and
Post by sbalneav
you make a backhanded slur against me.
really? i'd prefer we stick to the discussion "No Ontology
Without Epistemology!". if not, you'd in my blacklist.
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.

Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think I am stupid,
you have already proven that you are stupid, not me. If
you don't know the answer, can you please "pass" to other
people to answer? thanks.
sbalneav
2012-12-26 17:36:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
The problem, of course, is the kind of person who DOES do some thinking will,
sometimes, look at your sig, think "Moron",
the joke is on him.
and move on.
might as well!
You'll lose out on a
Post by sbalneav
potentially enlightening discussion.
thanks, but no thanks.
Your prerogative.
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
but if you're so offended by the sig as
it now stands,
I'm not offended, I'm offering constructive criticism.
from you? thanks, but no thanks.
Again, your prerogative.
Post by TheInquirer
You may take it or
Post by sbalneav
leave it as such.
Post by TheInquirer
so much so that i end up on your kill file, i
won't mind. might as well. i don't think i'll miss much.
Ahhh, there's that unwarrented self-importance
again. I try to be helpful,
and
Post by sbalneav
you make a backhanded slur against me.
really? i'd prefer we stick to the discussion "No Ontology
Without Epistemology!". if not, you'd in my blacklist.
Disagree. The artcle is basically a very long-winded way of saying "Just
because we see no evidence FOR a God, doesn't mean that the default position of
"a God doesn't exist" is necessarily correct. The author has taken several
hundred words to basically re-hash the idea of gnosis.
Most of us here are AGNOSTIC atheists, that is to say, we don't claim absolute
knowledge that a God or Gods do not exist, but based on the lack of evidence we
do not believe in a God or Gods.
So the article you originally posted, I feel, brings nothing new to the table.
Saying: 'Why should "no Gods exist" be the default position' is just a fancy
way of attempting to shift the burden of proof.
--
__ _ | A library is not a luxury but one of the necessities of life.
(_ |_) | -- Henry Ward Beecher
__)|_) |
TheInquirer
2012-12-26 19:13:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by sbalneav
So the article you originally posted, I feel, brings nothing new to the table.
Saying: 'Why should "no Gods exist" be the default position' is just a fancy
way of attempting to shift the burden of proof.
this assumes there is something to be shifted. my approach, as an
independent inquirer, is different. Both parties have the burden of
proof. as for me, i don't have a viewpoint to peddle. i am not a
"vendor", but rather a potential "customer".

when i want to choose between buying a Samsung or an iPhone or other
brand (or hell! try to make my own), i want to see which salesman
can give me the best deal. see?

;-)
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.

Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think I am stupid,
you have already proven that you are stupid, not me. If
you don't know the answer, can you please "pass" to other
people to answer? thanks.
sbalneav
2012-12-27 00:49:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
So the article you originally posted, I feel, brings nothing new to the table.
Saying: 'Why should "no Gods exist" be the default position' is just a fancy
way of attempting to shift the burden of proof.
this assumes there is something to be shifted. my approach, as an
independent inquirer, is different.
And incorrect.
Post by TheInquirer
Both parties have the burden of
proof.
You're more than welcome to think that way, but over 2500 years of philosophy
have pretty conclusively decided that the person who asserts the positive has
the burden of proof. The person who disbelieves the assertion has no
responsibility to prove the converse. Indeed, when it comes to questions of
existence, proving that something DOESN'T exist is pretty nigh on impossible.
While absence of evidence is evidence of absence, it's not PROOF of absence.

That is why the majority of atheists are AGNOSTIC atheists. It's an
acknowledgement of the fact that, regardless of how many 9's we place after the
decimal point, we can't be 100% sure.

This is, of course, seen most practically in Law. One is not declared "Guilty"
or "Innocent". One is declared "Guilty" or "Not Guilty".
Post by TheInquirer
as for me, i don't have a viewpoint to peddle. i am not a
"vendor", but rather a potential "customer".
when i want to choose between buying a Samsung or an iPhone or other
brand (or hell! try to make my own), i want to see which salesman
can give me the best deal. see?
This analogy fails on a couple of fronts.

First, while you may consider yourself a "customer", it doesn't necessarily
mean the atheist feels that they are a "vendor". I have arrived at my
conclusions on my own. If you arrive at the same conclusions as me, that's
great. If you think the theists have a better argument, that's fine too, and I
may debate with you on that if you desire. But I do not "increase my client
base" or "loose my client base" depending on which way you go, so long as
you're not infringing on any of my rights. To quote Jefferson: "But it does me
no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither
picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." So, I generally don't have a stake in
deciding which way you go. The iPhone or Android or whatever vendor certainly
does.

Secondly, while you personally may weigh the relative merits of belief systems,
or lack thereof, it doesn't change the fact that the atheist does not have a
burden of proof. The atheists position is that the theist has not fulfilled
his or her burden of proof that a deity of some kind exists. The atheist
simply has to point out to YOU that fact, as the justification of their
position.
--
__ _ | Freedom means learning to deal with being offended.
(_ |_) | -- Andrew Sullivan
__)|_) |
TheInquirer
2012-12-27 04:49:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
this assumes there is something to be shifted. my approach, as an
independent inquirer, is different.
And incorrect.
just because people say so?
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
Both parties have the burden of
proof.
You're more than welcome to think that way, but over 2500 years of philosophy
does this help humans to discover truth?

does this help humans to be less bigoted?

does this help humans achieve synthesis (incorporating seemingly
opposing views)?
Post by sbalneav
existence, proving that something DOESN'T exist is pretty nigh on impossible.
and even worse if different people have different defintions and
different presumptions, isn't it?
Post by sbalneav
First, while you may consider yourself a "customer", it doesn't necessarily
mean the atheist feels that they are a "vendor". I have arrived at my
conclusions on my own.
i am interested in investigating presumptions and definitions,
especially hidden / unconscious ones. conclusions follow logically once
those become clear, don't they?
Post by sbalneav
great. If you think the theists have a better argument,
If i think the theists have a better argument, why am i asking both parties?


it doesn't change the fact that the atheist does not have a
Post by sbalneav
burden of proof.
but there are unsettled questions:-

* what is the defintion of god / Gods that an "atheist" does not have?

* is there a real distinction between "natural" and "supernatural"?


The atheists position is that the theist has not fulfilled
Post by sbalneav
his or her burden of proof that a deity of some kind exists. The atheist
simply has to point out to YOU that fact, as the justification of their
position.
have you heard of ignosticism?

[ i don't necessary call myself an ignosticist. i'll sort this out
later. but for now, i'll just call myself a "questionist", for want
of a better term. ]
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.

Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think I am stupid,
you have already proven that you are stupid, not me. If
you don't know the answer, can you please "pass" to other
people to answer? thanks.
sbalneav
2012-12-27 15:04:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
this assumes there is something to be shifted. my approach, as an
independent inquirer, is different.
And incorrect.
just because people say so?
That's generally how it works, yes. Because the people who say so have put a
lot of thought and reasoning behind it. You can pick up any book on critical
thinking to understand the reasons why.
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
Both parties have the burden of
proof.
You're more than welcome to think that way, but over 2500 years of philosophy
does this help humans to discover truth?
Yes, because it puts the burden of proof where it belongs: with the person who
asserts something.
Post by TheInquirer
does this help humans to be less bigoted?
A bigoted person doesn't follow critical thinking rules, by definition. So,
yes, if people actually used reason and logic, as they've been developed over 3
millenia or so, they would be less bigoted.
Post by TheInquirer
does this help humans achieve synthesis (incorporating seemingly
opposing views)?
Is synthesis necessarily a good thing thing, if one of the views is
demonstrably incorrect? Isn't helping humans understanding approach reality
more important?
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
existence, proving that something DOESN'T exist is pretty nigh on impossible.
and even worse if different people have different defintions and
different presumptions, isn't it?
Yes, that's why it's important to define things ahead of time, and be clear on
definitions.
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
First, while you may consider yourself a "customer", it doesn't necessarily
mean the atheist feels that they are a "vendor". I have arrived at my
conclusions on my own.
i am interested in investigating presumptions and definitions,
especially hidden / unconscious ones. conclusions follow logically once
those become clear, don't they?
No, not necessarily. Quantum mechanics is a classic example of a field that
dosen't conform to our preconceived notions of how we thought the universe
operated. We discovered this through OBSERVATION and experimentation. When
discussing the nature of the universe, it is demonstrably not sufficient to
just base our reasoning on pure logic and definitions. Observation and
experimentation must take primacy.
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
great. If you think the theists have a better argument,
If i think the theists have a better argument, why am i asking both parties?
How can you tell if the theists have a better argument until you ask both
parties?
Post by TheInquirer
it doesn't change the fact that the atheist does not have a
Post by sbalneav
burden of proof.
but there are unsettled questions:-
* what is the defintion of god / Gods that an "atheist" does not have?
The one that theists give us. Many times, theists do not precisely define
their God(s), or define them in such a way as to make any investigation into
their God(s) impossible *by definition*.
Post by TheInquirer
* is there a real distinction between "natural" and "supernatural"?
Again, it's the theist that asserts the supernatural. So far, there's been no
evidence of what the theist asserts is "the supernatural" existing.
Post by TheInquirer
The atheists position is that the theist has not fulfilled
Post by sbalneav
his or her burden of proof that a deity of some kind exists. The atheist
simply has to point out to YOU that fact, as the justification of their
position.
have you heard of ignosticism?
Yes. It's the position that that all the other -isms assume too much about the
nature of God.

I'd like to ask: on what do they make that assumption?
Post by TheInquirer
[ i don't necessary call myself an ignosticist. i'll sort this out
later. but for now, i'll just call myself a "questionist", for want
of a better term. ]
--
__ _ | Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
(_ |_) | Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.
__)|_) | -- Groucho Marx
TheInquirer
2012-12-27 16:19:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
this assumes there is something to be shifted. my approach, as an
independent inquirer, is different.
And incorrect.
just because people say so?
That's generally how it works, yes. Because the people who say so have put a
lot of thought and reasoning behind it.
and so what?

You can pick up any book on critical
Post by sbalneav
thinking to understand the reasons why.
Yes, because it puts the burden of proof where it belongs: with the person who
asserts something.
this presumes there is another person to argue with.

[ you may want to pick holes at my buying mobile phone analogy, but it
doesn't prove anything, since all analogies break down anyway. trivial
observation. ]

and what if i'm debating with myself? which position shall i take as
the default position? should it even be a binary choice?
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
does this help humans to be less bigoted?
A bigoted person doesn't follow critical thinking rules,
whose rules are you talking about?

one well-known set of rules is
True ==> True (valid argument)
True ==> False (invalid argument)
False ==> True (valid argument)
False ==> False (valid argument)

note
True ==> True (valid argument)
False ==> True (valid argument)

if person1 asserts propsition A and person2 asserts propsition not(A),
but i don't know who is correct, why should i assume anyone of them
is correct as the default?
Post by sbalneav
Is synthesis necessarily a good thing thing, if one of the views is
demonstrably incorrect?
assuming one view is demonstrably incorrect?

if you're referring to the view that "God exists." is demonstrably
incorrect, without defining what "God" means, that's crap isn't it?

maybe you'd have an easier time with demonstrating that the view "a
benevolent God exists" is incorrect (just look at the carnage around the
world), but that begs the question: what does "benevolent" mean?


Isn't helping humans understanding approach reality
Post by sbalneav
more important?
is there a way for people to avoid dogma without themselves falling into
dogma?
Post by sbalneav
How can you tell if the theists have a better argument until you ask both
parties?
prima facie, both sides seem to be bigoted, like the blind men
describing the elephant.
Post by sbalneav
The one that theists give us. Many times, theists do not precisely define
their God(s),
because they use an apophatic approach?


or define them in such a way as to make any investigation into
Post by sbalneav
their God(s) impossible *by definition*.
wouldn't this, plus the labelling of "theist" versus "atheist" be even a
waste of time?

"agnostic" sounds wishy-washy, but, properly used means "i don't know".
but i have a question: what if what we "know" are just beliefs?
i heard recently there's a philosopher challenging the notion of
"knowledge" as "justified true belief"

do many people use the term "ignostic"?

"unaffiliated" seems to be the best term i have heard so far: it doesn't
say there is no God or gods of any sort, nor does it say there is -- it
merely says you're not part of any organised group or stick to a
formulated creed. it can cover people who believe in an
Einstein-Spinoza kind of God, can't it?
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
* is there a real distinction between "natural" and "supernatural"?
Again, it's the theist that asserts the supernatural. So far, there's been no
evidence of what the theist asserts is "the supernatural" existing.
where's the boundary?
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.

Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think I am stupid,
you have already proven that you are stupid, not me. If
you don't know the answer, can you please "pass" to other
people to answer? thanks.
sbalneav
2012-12-27 19:44:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
this assumes there is something to be shifted. my approach, as an
independent inquirer, is different.
And incorrect.
just because people say so?
That's generally how it works, yes. Because the people who say so have put a
lot of thought and reasoning behind it.
and so what?
You can pick up any book on critical
Post by sbalneav
thinking to understand the reasons why.
Yes, because it puts the burden of proof where it belongs: with the person who
asserts something.
this presumes there is another person to argue with.
Well, that's generally how discussions take place.
Post by TheInquirer
[ you may want to pick holes at my buying mobile phone analogy, but it
doesn't prove anything, since all analogies break down anyway. trivial
observation. ]
and what if i'm debating with myself? which position shall i take as
the default position? should it even be a binary choice?
What position you take is, as you've already pointed out in your sig, your
business.
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
does this help humans to be less bigoted?
A bigoted person doesn't follow critical thinking rules,
whose rules are you talking about?
http://www.amazon.ca/Best-Critical-Thinking-Books/lm/29V1GPTAL2TMT

There's some books to get you started. Let me know when you've read one of
'em.

Here's one I have on my bookshelf:

http://www.amazon.ca/Critical-Thinking-sixth-Introduction-Skills/dp/1551111632/ref=sr_1_66?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1356636802&sr=1-66
Post by TheInquirer
one well-known set of rules is
True ==> True (valid argument)
True ==> False (invalid argument)
False ==> True (valid argument)
False ==> False (valid argument)
note
True ==> True (valid argument)
False ==> True (valid argument)
if person1 asserts propsition A and person2 asserts propsition not(A),
but i don't know who is correct, why should i assume anyone of them
is correct as the default?
http://www.null-hypothesis.co.uk/science//item/what_is_a_null_hypothesis
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
Is synthesis necessarily a good thing thing, if one of the views is
demonstrably incorrect?
assuming one view is demonstrably incorrect?
Some views are.
Post by TheInquirer
if you're referring to the view that "God exists." is demonstrably
incorrect, without defining what "God" means, that's crap isn't it?
Where have I asserted that the view "God exists" is demonstrably *incorrect*?
Post by TheInquirer
maybe you'd have an easier time with demonstrating that the view "a
benevolent God exists" is incorrect (just look at the carnage around the
world), but that begs the question: what does "benevolent" mean?
Please indicate where I've indicated that the existence of ANY GOD is
Post by TheInquirer
Isn't helping humans understanding approach reality
Post by sbalneav
more important?
is there a way for people to avoid dogma without themselves falling into
dogma?
If every time I ask a question, you're going to refuse to answer it and simply
ask another question, at some point I will simply "pass" to someone else, as it
will not be worth my while to continue to answer you.
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
How can you tell if the theists have a better argument until you ask both
parties?
prima facie, both sides seem to be bigoted, like the blind men
describing the elephant.
So if one person says "I believe in X", and the other one says "I see no
evidence for X and do not believe your claim", how is that bigotry?

Can you provide your definition of bigotry, please?
Post by TheInquirer
Post by sbalneav
The one that theists give us. Many times, theists do not precisely define
their God(s),
because they use an apophatic approach?
You'd have to ask them.
Post by TheInquirer
or define them in such a way as to make any investigation into
Post by sbalneav
their God(s) impossible *by definition*.
wouldn't this, plus the labelling of "theist" versus "atheist" be even a
waste of time?
Again, you'd have to ask them. They make the claim, I've simply rejected their
claim.
Post by TheInquirer
"agnostic" sounds wishy-washy, but, properly used means "i don't know".
but i have a question: what if what we "know" are just beliefs?
i heard recently there's a philosopher challenging the notion of
"knowledge" as "justified true belief"
You're skirting close to solipsism, or extreme skepticism here. If you want to
start claiming we don't know anything, that's fine. But at that point, you and
I are finished, and I'll pass to someone with the time and energy to argue
about a universe in which we don't know anything but our own thoughts.
Post by TheInquirer
do many people use the term "ignostic"?
"unaffiliated" seems to be the best term i have heard so far: it doesn't
say there is no God or gods of any sort, nor does it say there is -- it
merely says you're not part of any organised group or stick to a
formulated creed. it can cover people who believe in an
Einstein-Spinoza kind of God, can't it?
Post by sbalneav
Post by TheInquirer
* is there a real distinction between "natural" and "supernatural"?
Again, it's the theist that asserts the supernatural. So far, there's been no
evidence of what the theist asserts is "the supernatural" existing.
where's the boundary?
A boundary would imply there's a supernatural to transition in to. As I see no
evidence for any supernatural claims, there's no boundary.
--
__ _ | Wealth consists not in having great possessions,
(_ |_) | but in having few wants.
__)|_) | -- Epictetus
TheInquirer
2012-12-26 19:13:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by sbalneav
So the article you originally posted, I feel, brings nothing new to the table.
Saying: 'Why should "no Gods exist" be the default position' is just a fancy
way of attempting to shift the burden of proof.
this assumes there is something to be shifted. my approach, as an
independent inquirer, is different. Both parties have the burden of
proof. as for me, i don't have a viewpoint to peddle. i am not a
"vendor", but rather a potential "customer".

when i want to choose between buying a Samsung or an iPhone or other
brand (or hell! try to make my own), i want to see which salesman
can give me the best deal. see?

;-)
--
I ask, becos I'm curious.

Just answer the damn question, not the questioner! Don't
presume. My personal matters/beliefs are none of your
business. I ask, you answer. If you think I am stupid,
you have already proven that you are stupid, not me. If
you don't know the answer, can you please "pass" to other
people to answer? thanks.
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